♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

EXCLUSIVE FROM BRAZIL, PRESIDENT LULA DA SILVA RESPONDS TO TRUMP'S THREAT OF A CRIPPLING 50% TARIFF.

IN DEFENSE OF THE RIGHT-WING FORMER LEADER, JAIR BOLSONARO.

THEN, MORE DESPAIR IN GAZA, AFTER ISRAEL APPARENTLY STRIKES A CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND 20 PEOPLE ARE KILLED IN A CROWD CRUSH AT AN AID SITE.

AMI AYALON, THE FORMER HEAD OF ISRAEL'S INTERNAL SECURITY SERVICE SHIN BET JOINS ME.

PLUS, SURVIVING APOCALYPSE.

AUTHOR LIZZIE WADE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW CATASTROPHE EVOLVED OUR WORLD.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IN LONDON.

MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT IS THE BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT, LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, WHO HAS COME OUT FIGHTING AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP'S EXTRAORDINARY THREAT OF 50% TARIFFS UNLESS.

HE'S DO TO ADDRESS HIS OWN NATION TONIGHT, AND HE'S GIVEN US AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WHILE WEIGHING THIS RESPONSE TO THIS THREAT FROM THE U. S. WHAT'S MORE, TRUMP'S TARIFFS ARE MOSTLY SLAPPED ON NATIONS THAT HAVE A TRADE SURPLUS WITH THE U.S., BUT BRAZIL HAS A TRADE DEFICIT.

SO, WHY?

WELL, TRUMP SAYS BECAUSE I CAN.

BUT HE'S ALSO SETTLING SCORES FOR JAIR BOLSONARO, WHO WAS BRAZIL'S PRESIDENT DURING TRUMP 1.0, AND WHO IS FACING TRIAL FOR ALLEGEDLY ATTEMPTING TO STAGE A COUP AGAINST THE CURRENT PRESIDENT LULA, TRYING TO OVERTURN HIS 2022 ELECTION.

>> WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO THEIR FORMER PRESIDENT IS DISGRACEFUL.

I KNOW THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

HE FOUGHT LIKE HELL FOR THE PEOPLE OF BRAZIL, THAT I CAN TELL YOU, AND I BELIEVE HE'S AN HONEST MAN.

I THINK WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO HIM IS TERRIBLE.

>> BOLSONARO, IN TURN, SAYS HE'S, QUOTE, PASSIONATE ABOUT TRUMP.

>> Translator: I HAVE DEEP GRATITUDE FOR HIM.

WE HAD AN EXCELLENT RELATIONSHIP.

WE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS AROUND THE WORLD, WE HAD --WE MADE PLANS, IT SEEMS WE WERE EVEN DATING, WITH A LOT OF PLANS FOR BRAZIL.

HE TREATED ME LIKE A BROTHER.

HE TREATS ME LIKE A BROTHER.

AND HE PUT MY NAME IN THE FIRST LINE OF THAT LETTER, RIGHT THERE, MY NAME.

>> AMID THIS BROMANCE, THE CURRENT PRESIDENT LULA SAYS IT'S UNACCEPTABLE FOR THE USA OR ANY FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE IN ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS AND JUDICIAL PROCESS.

BUT WHEN HE JOINED ME FROM BRASILIA, HE ALSO SAID THE BEST WAY TO DISCUSS ANY TRADE ISSUES IS AROUND THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

MR. PRESIDENT, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> Translator: IT'S MY PLEASURE, CHRISTIANE.

GREAT PLEASURE TO TALK TO YOU AGAIN, AND DIRECT MYSELF TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> WELL, THAT'S A GOOD THING, BECAUSE I WANT TO ASK YOU, FIRST, WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO BE SLAPPED WITH A 50% TARIFF BY THE UNITED STATES, THE WORLD'S BIGGEST ECONOMY?

>> Translator: WELL, CHRISTIANE, FOR ME, IT WAS A SURPRISE, NOT ONLY THE VALUE OF THAT TARIFF, BUT ALSO HOW IT WAS ANNOUNCED, THE WAY IT WAS ANNOUNCED.

I THINK WE'RE LACKING A LITTLE BIT OF MULTILATERALISM ON PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MIND-SET, AND HE KNOWS THAT A PROBLEM OF THIS SORT, IT IS SOLVED IN A BARGAINING TABLE, AROUND THE BARGAINING TABLE, SO, WHAT DO WE SEE?

WE WERE NEGOTIATING WITH THE U.S., ALREADY FOR SOME MONTHS.

MY FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER, THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC, WHICH IS ALSO THE MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND DEVELOPMENT AND COMMERCE.

SINCE MARCH, WE SENT A PROPOSAL TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, AFTER TEN MEETINGS.

WE SENT A PROPOSAL ON MAY 16th, SAY WHAT WE WANTED, AND WHAT WAS POSSIBLE FOR US TO REACH AN AGREEMENT.

FOR OUR SURPRISE, INSTEAD OF A RESPONSE TO THE LETTER THAT WE SENT, WE RECEIVED THE NEWS, PUBLISHED IN THE PRESIDENT'S -- TRUMP'S SITE, IT WAS NOT A LETTER SENT OFFICIALLY BY DIPLOMATIC MEANS.

I THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE, A BIG MISTAKE, BECAUSE THE LETTER THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS FULL OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE.

FIRST OF ALL, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM OF BRAZIL IS INDEPENDENT.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLICAN CANNOT INTERFERE IN THE JUDICIAL BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

THE UNITED STATES HAS A SURPLUS OF $410 BILLION VIS A VIS BRAZIL.

AND THIRDLY, IF WE'RE GOING TO CHARGE TAX, BIG TAX IN BRAZIL, THAT'S A PROBLEM OF THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT, IF WE CHARGE A HIGH TAX AND THEY DON'T AGREE, WE CAN ESTABLISH A NEGOTIATION WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

THIS IS HOW THE WORLD WORKS WITH MULTILATERALISM.

THAT'S HOW THE WORLD TRADE WORKS.

AND HOW BRAZIL ACTS.

WHAT WE CANNOT HAVE IS PRESIDENT TRUMP FORGETTING THAT HE WAS ELECTED TO GOVERN THE U.S.

HE WAS ELECTED NOT TO BE THE EMPEROR OF THE WORLD.

IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER TO ESTABLISH A NEGOTIATION FIRST AND THEN TO REACH THE POSSIBLE AGREEMENT, BECAUSE WE'RE TWO COUNTRIES THAT WE HAD VERY GOOD MEETINGS, AND WE HAVE GOOD RELATIONS FOR 200 YEARS, AND SO, HE'S BREAKING AWAY FROM ANY PROTOCOL THAT SHOULD EXIST BETWEEN THE RELATIONS BETWEEN TWO HEADS OF STATE.

IT WAS VERY UNPLEASANT.

WE'RE TRYING TO TALK WITH PEOPLE THERE, BUT WE'RE ALSO PREPARING OURSELVES TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO THAT, WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING PUBLICLY, IS THAT WE WILL USE ALL THE WORDS THAT EXIST IN THE DICTIONARY IN TRYING TO NEGOTIATE.

IF WE DON'T MANAGE TO REACH AN AGREEMENT, I CAN REASSURE YOU THAT WE WILL TWO TO THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION OR WE CAN GATHER GROUP OF COUNTRIES TO RESPOND.

OR WE CAN USE THE RECIPROCITY LAW THAT WAS PASSED THIS BILL BY THE NATIONAL CONGRESS.

THIS IS HOW IT'S GOING TO WORK.

I REGRET - -I REGRET THAT TWO COUNTRIES THAT HAVE AN HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP OF 201 YEARS PREFER TO BE FIGHTING THROUGH JUDICIAL MEANS, BECAUSE ONE PRESIDENT IS NOT RESPECTING THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE OTHER PRESIDENT.

>> NOW, MR. PRESIDENT, APPARENTLY PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SAYING THAT HE, YOU KNOW, DISAGREES WITH BRAZIL'S INVESTIGATION AND COURT CASE AGAINST YOUR PREDECESSOR, PRESIDENT BOLSONARO.

THIS IS WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID.

"THIS IS NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN AN ATTACK ON A POLITICAL OPPONENT.

SOMETHING I KNOW MUCH ABOUT.

IT HAPPENED TO ME TEN TIMES."

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> Translator: WELL, MY ANSWER TO THAT IS THAT THE JUDICIARY BRANCH OF POWER IN BRAZIL IS INDEPENDENT.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC HAS NO INTERFERENCE WHATSOEVER WITH THE SUPREME COURT AND THE JUSTICES ARE APPROVED BY THE SENATE, THEY TOOK OFFICE, AND THEY HAVE INDEPENDENT, AND THEY TAKE CARE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

BOLSONARO IS ON TRIAL, NOT BECAUSE HE'S AN OPPONENT, I WON THREE ELECTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY, IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT, EVERY ELECTION THAT I WON --I LOST THREE PREVIOUS ELECTIONS AND WON, SO -- WE PARTICIPATED IN FIVE ELECTIONS AND NEVER BEFORE IN THIS COUNTRY, SOMEONE WOULD RAISE THIS ISSUE TO TRY TO SAY, OR TRY A COUP D'ETAT.

HE'S NOT JUDGED PERSONALLY.

HE IS BEING JUDGED BY THE ACTS.

HE TRIED TO ORGANIZE A COUP D'ETAT.

HE THREATENED --HE PLANNED THE DEATH OF MYSELF AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

HE COULD BE ON TRIAL JUST FOR THAT.

AND THE GENERAL --THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DENOUNCED YESTERDAY, HE WILL BE CONVICTED, AND I BELIEVE IN THAT.

CHRISTIANE, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

IF TRUMP WAS BRAZILIAN AND IF HE DID WHAT WAS HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL HILL, HE WOULD ALSO BE ON TRIAL IN BRAZIL, AND POSSIBLY --AND HE WOULD HAVE VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION ACCORDING TO THE JUSTICES, HE KOLS ALSO COULD ALSO BE ARRESTED IF HE HAD DONE THAT HERE IN BRAZIL.

>> I HAVE TO SAY THAT PRESIDENT BOLSONARO DENIES ALL THESE CHARGES, BUT MORE TO THE POINT, HIS SON, EDUARDO, WHO IS A, I BELIEVE A MEMBER OF YOUR PARLIAMENT, HE HAS BEEN IN THE UNITED STATES, LOBBYING FOR SANCTIONS, BUT HE WAS CALLING FOR SANCTIONS AGAINST THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

THEN TRUMP TURNS AROUND, YOU KNOW, HAVING THOUGHT ABOUT IT, AND, IN FACT, PUTS SANCTIONS ON YOUR WHOLE COUNTRY OF 200 MILLION PEOPLE IN TERMS OF THIS 50% TARIFF.

YOUR OPPONENTS HAVE BEEN -- WELL, BOLSONARO HAS BEEN TRYING TO GET THIS RESULT, AND THEY WANT YOU TO DROP THE CHARGES.

>> Translator: WELL, FIRST OF ALL IT'S NOT THE PRESIDENT LULA THAT IS CHARGING BOLL BOLSONARO.

IT'S THE SUPREME COURT IS THE ONE THAT WILL RULE.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, CHRISTIANE, THAT I WAS PUT ON TRIAL WITH THE SAME COURT, THE SAME SUPREME COURT, THAT I LOST THREE PREVIOUS ELECTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND I NEVER RAISED ANY ISSUE.

I PREPARED MYSELF FOR THE NEXT ELECTION, IF I LOST ONE.

HE KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO LOSE THE ELECTION.

WHEN I WAS IN JAIL, THE POLLS SAID THAT I WOULD WIN THE FUTURE ELECTION, NOW HE'S SAYING THAT HE WAS --AND THEN HE TRIED A COUP D'ETAT, AND THEN, AS A COWARD, HE FLED TO THE U.S., DIDN'T HAND OVER POWER.

SO, THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT DESERVES RESPECT, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TO RESPECT, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE SUPREME COURT, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE LEGISLATIVE BODY OF POWER, AS I U. S. SOVEREIGNTY.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE SUPER TARIFF WILL ALSO CREATE PROBLEMS FOR THE AMERICAN CONSUMER, FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

NOT ONLY FOR THE BRAZILIANS.

I WANT TO TRY TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS HERE IN BRAZIL.

WE'RE TALKING WITH THE BUSINESS SECTORS, WITH THE AGRICULTURAL PRODUCERS, WITH THE FISHERMEN, THE TRADE UNIONS, WE WILL TRY TO GIVE A RESPONSE, NOT BY SIGHT, WE'LL SEND AN OFFICIAL LETTER THROUGH DIPLOMATIC MEANS, FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF BRAZIL FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP TO KNOW THAT RESPECT IS SOMETHING VERY GOOD, AND I LIKE TO SHOW RESPECT AND I LIKE TO RECEIVE RESPECT.

>> AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS THREATENED BIG TARIFFS, 50% AT ONE POINT ON CHINA, THEN THEY WALKED THAT BACK, 50% AT ONE POINT ON COLOMBIA AND COLOMBIA THEN AGREED TO TRUMP'S DEMANDS ON DEPORTEES.

PEOPLE AND COUNTRIES DO NOT WANT TO PROVOKE PRESIDENT TRUMP, BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT IT WILL BE EVEN WORSE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ECONOMIES.

WHAT IS YOUR ECONOMIC PLAN B, IF YOU DON'T AGREE TO WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DEMANDING, AND IF YOU GET HIT WITH A 50%?

WHO IS YOUR MARKET?

HOW DO YOU SURVIVE?

>> Translator: WELL, CHRISTIANE, IF I RESPOND TO, WHAT IS MY STRATEGY, NO, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK, SO, I CAN'T TELL YOU MY STRATEGY.

WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING, I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU SOMETHING, CHRISTIANE, IN --IN 2 1/2 YEARS OF MY TERM, I CREATED 379 NEW MARKETS FOR BRAZILIAN GOODS AND SERVICE.

I'VE BEEN TRAVELING A LOT ABROAD, AND WILL REACH AN AGREEMENT WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION, WE'LL HAVE AN AGREEMENT WITH COUNTRIES FROM ASEAN, AND AN AGREEMENT WITH THE LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, WE'LL TALK WITH MEXICO, AND WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO SEEK FOR NEW TRADE PARTNERS, BUT WE WILL STILL TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE IMPORTANCE THAT THE U. S. HAS FOR US.

I WOULD NEVER IMAGINE TO PICK UP A FIGHT WITH THE U.S., NEVER.

YOU KNOW VERY WELL, I HAD AN EXTRAORDINARY RELATIONSHIP WITH ALL THE FORMER PRESIDENTS SINCE CLINTON, TO BUSH, OBAMA, AND TO BIDEN.

AND I HOPE TO HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, TOO.

NOW, WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT AND THAT IS NECESSARY TO RESPECT THE SOVEREIGNTY OF EACH COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO RESPECT WHAT IS HAPPENING INSIDE A COUNTRY, TO TALK ABOUT DEFORESTATION IN BRAZIL --BRAZIL IS THE COUNTRY THAT TAKES MORE SERIOUS THE CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUE.

WE HAVE DIMINISHED 50% OF DEFORESTATION IN THE AMAZON TROPICAL FOREST, AND MY COMMITMENT UNTIL 2030 IS TO HAVE ZERO DEFORESTATION IN THE AMAZON, AND I HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL COME TO COP-30, IT'S GOING TO BE IN THE HEART OF THE AMAZON.

AND, FIRST OF ALL, WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT IF THEY'RE REALLY CONCERNED, WHEN THEY COME TO COP-30.

I WANT TO SEE IF THE WORLD LEADERSHIP IS UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SCIENTISTS ARE RIGHT WHEN THEY SAY, OR, THINK THAT IT'S JUST A LIE AND THAT'S --THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO FIND OUT AT COP-30, BECAUSE THE RICH COUNTRIES PROMISED IN 2009 TO CREATE 100 BILLION FUND PER YEAR TO HELP THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, THE POOR COUNTRIES, AND NOTHING CAME OUT FROM THAT FUND.

NOW, IT'S ALREADY $1.

3 TRILLION, THIS FUND, IF IT WAS UPDATED.

SO, WHAT I BELIEVE IS THAT, MY POLITICAL LIFE WAS -- I WAS BORN AS A NEGOTIATOR.

IT WAS A TRADE UNION LEADER, I WENT ON STRIKES, I HAD MANY WORKERS, BUT EVERYTHING WAS AT THE BARGAINING TABLE.

THAT'S WHERE WE SOLVE THE ISSUES, AND IT'S THERE --IT'S MUCH MORE CHEAPER GOING TO WAR.

IT'S MUCH MORE CHEAPER TO HAVE CONFRONTATION.

YOU DON'T DESTROY ANYTHING UNDER NEGOTIATION.

BUT WE WON'T HAVE ANY DEATH TOLLS.

NO ONE DIES UNDER NEGOTIATION TABLE.

THIS COUNTRY THAT IS TALKING TO YOU IS A PEACEFUL COUNTRY.

WE HAVE --WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE LITIGATION WITH ANY COUNTRY.

WE WANT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM AROUND THAT, THAT'S WHY WE SENT ON MAY 16 th THE PROPOSALS FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU TALK AND YOU REMIND US ALL THAT YOU WERE A NEGOTIATOR.

SO IS PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE LIKES TO CALL HIMSELF A GREAT DEAL-MAKER.

SURELY, THAT MEANS THE TWO PRESIDENTS, YOU AND HE, SHOULD HAVE ROOM TO BE ABLE TO SORT THIS OUT.

BUT YOU KNOW, YOU ARE LEFT WING PROGRESSIVE, HE IS RIGHT WING AND ALL OF THAT, MAYBE YOUR POLITICS JUST DON'T MATCH?

BUT THERE'S SOMETHING THAT'S GOING ON BETWEEN YOU ALL.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT BRAZIL'S TRADE WITH THE U.S.

REPRESENTS 1.7% OF YOUR TOTAL GDP.

IT'S NOT LIKE WE CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES.

THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD BRAZILIAN TELEVISION THIS WEEK.

DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR COUNTRY, AND MAYBE OTHERS LIKE THE BRICS AND OTHER COUNTRIES, ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO TRUMP-PROOF, IN OTHER WORDS, TO SET UP, YOU KNOW, A SEPARATE MARKET OR WHATEVER IT IS, TO -- TO PROTECT AGAINST THESE KINDS OF UNILATERAL TARIFFS FROM THE UNITED STATES?

>> Translator: WELL, CHRISTIANE, LET ME SAY TO YOU SOMETHING VERY BLUNTLY -- I'M NOT A PROGRESSIVE PRESIDENT, I AM THE PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL.

I DON'T SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP AS A FAR RIGHT PRESIDENT, I SEE HIM AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.

HE WAS ELECTED BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

SO, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I LIKE HIM OR NOT LIKE HIM IN TERMS OF HIS IDEOLOGY.

WHAT MATTERS, HE'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. AND I'M PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL.

AND IT'S ME AND HIM, AND SO, THE BEST THING IN THE WORLD IS FOR US TO SIT AROUND THE TABLE AND TALK.

THAT WOULD BE THE BEST THING IN THE WORLD.

BUT NOW, HE HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT HE'S NOT INTERESTED, BECAUSE HE THINKS HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS WITH THE TARIFFS.

THE SECOND ISSUE IS THAT NO ONE -- NO ONE WANTS TO BREAKAWAY FROM THE U.S. NO ONE WANTS TO BE FREE OF THE U.S. WHAT WE WANT IS NOT TO BE A HOSTAGE OF THE U.S. WE WANT FREEDOM.

WE DON'T WANT TO BE HOSTAGE OF THE U.S. WE WANT FREEDOM FOR THE TRADE.

AND SO, IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WE REPRESENT 40% OF THE INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN THE WORLD.

AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WE HAVE 25% OF THE WORLD GDP.

AND BESIDES THAT, WE HAVE ALMOST HALF OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION, AND SO, WE DON'T WANT TO PICK A FIGHT WITH ANYBODY.

THE BRICS WAS NOT CREATED TO FIGHT WITH ANY COUNTRY, THE BRICS WAS CREATED SO THAT WE, THAT CONSIDER OURSELVES EQUALLY, DISCUSS IN A PEACEFUL MANNER OUR ISSUES.

THIS IS HOW WE SEEK PEACE IN THE UKRAINE, THAT'S HOW WE WANT PEACE IN GAZA.

BRAZIL DOES NOT WANT TO FEED ANY WAR OR PARTICIPATE IN WAR.

>> OKAY.

>> BRAZIL WANTS PEACE.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SHOULD KNOW THAT.

>> OKAY, SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU MIGHT FEEL ANY SYMPATHY OR HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN IT COMES TO PRESIDENT PUTIN.

YOU'VE JUST TALKED ABOUT WANTING PEACE IN --IN UKRAINE.

AND YOU SPOKE TO PRESIDENT PUTIN, WHEN YOU WENT TO COMMEMORATE THE END OF WORLD WAR II IN MOSCOW JUST THIS YEAR.

YOU HAVE SUGGESTED THAT YOU COULD MEDIATE, BUT YOU'VE ALSO SEEN THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO TALK SENSE TO PUTIN, TRIED TO LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, A NEGOTIATOR AND A MEDIATOR, AND PUTIN HAS ABSOLUTELY FAILED TO RESPOND.

IN FACT, DONE THE EXACT OPPOSITE, AND TRUMP IS GETTING VERY FRUSTRATED.

YOU HAVEN'T HAD ANY SUCCESS WITH PUTIN, EITHER, IN TERMS OF ENDING THIS WAR.

WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE NOW TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND TO YOURSELF, AND TO ANYBODY ELSE, WHO WANTS TO TRY TO END THIS BLOODY WAR?

>> Translator: I WAS VERY HAPPY WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO NEGOTIATE THE END OF THE WAR WITH PUTIN.

I WAS HAPPY WITH THAT.

ALTHOUGH I --I WAS HAPPY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS WILLING TO STOP THE WAR.

NOW, THIS WEEK, I HEARD THAT HE'S GOING TO SELL MORE ARMS.

THE WORLD IS VERY STRANGE, CHRISTIANE.

THE WORLD HAS INCREASED --THE NATO COUNTRIES INCREASED 5% OF THEIR GDP MILITARY SPENDING TO BUY ARMS, AND WE HAVE 733 MILLION PEOPLE THAT ARE DYING OF HUNGER.

AND OTHERS THAT DON'T HAVE MEDICAL ASSISTANT, OTHER MILLIONS DON'T HAVE DRINKING WATER, AND DON'T HAVE BASIC SANITATION.

SO, ALL THIS MONEY THAT IS BEING CARRIED TO BUY WEAPONS SHOULD BE CARRIED TO --TO END EXTREME POVERTY IN THE WORLD.

AND WHEN THE EXTREME POVERTY COUNTRIES DEVOTE THEMSELVES, THEY CAN BUY FROM THE RICH COUNTRIES.

NOT EVEN THIS IDEA THEY CAN UNDERSTAND SO, I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, THERE ARE NO -- TO SOLVE THE PEACE ISSUE.

IT'S NECESSARY, THE U.N. SHOULD TAKE OVER THE COORDINATION.

U.N. HAS TO TAKE COORDINATION AND PUTIN AND ZELENSKYY AGREE WITH THAT, TO HAVE A COORDINATION OF A GROUP OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE FRIENDS THAT COULD DEVELOP AN ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL TO WHAT THEY WANT.

OTHERWISE, THIS WAR WILL NOT HAVE AN END, AND I HOPE SINCERELY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, INSTEAD OF SELLING MORE WEAPONS, HE BE MORE CAREFUL TO TRY TO REACH PEACE.

HE HAS THE STRENGTH, THE FORCE TO DO THAT, THE SAME THING, I THINK, OF PRESIDENT JI.

IT'S LIKE GAZA.

WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA?

NETANYAHU DOESN'T SHOW ANY RESPECT FOR ANYBODY, DOESN'T RESPECT THE U.N., THE U.S., HE DOESN'T RESPECT ANYBODY, ANYTHING.

NETANYAHU IS NOW PREDESTINED TO CONTINUE IN GOVERNMENT AND TO CONTINUE IN GOVERNMENT, HE NEEDS TO GO TO WAR.

HE HAS TO KILL A LOT OF CHILDREN.

IS THIS THE WORLD THAT WE WANT?

THE U.S. IS PART OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, CHINA IS PART OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, RUSSIA, FRANCE, AND ENGLAND.

WHAT IS THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL DOING NOW?

AND --THE FULL MEMBERS OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, WHAT DO THEY DO?

WHO ARE THEY WILL BEING TO?

EVERY DAY, I READ THE NEWSPAPER, SOMEONE ASK FOR CEASE- FIRE AND THE NEXT DAY NETANYAHU KILLS MORE WOMEN AND CHILDREN THERE.

AND NOW HE'S JUST KILLED CHILDREN THERE, WHO ARE TRYING TO --SEEKING FOR FOOD, AND NOT FOR WEAPONS.

WHERE IS THE WORLD GOVERNANCE THAT HAS TO INTERVENE?

WE NEED A WORLD GOVER RNANCE THAT SHOULD BE DONE BY THE FIVE PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

ALL THESE FIVE COUNTRIES, THEY HAVE WEAPONS, NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND ALL OF THEM ARE INVOLVED IN WARS, AND THE U.S. INVADED IRAQ WITHOUT CONSULTING THE U.N., FRANCE AND ENGLAND INVADED LIBYA WITHOUT CONSULTING THE U.N., AND PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE.

THE GAZA WAR, THERE'S NO CONSULTATION WITH THE U.N., EITHER.

SO, CHRISTIANE, WE'RE LACKING WORLD GOVERNANCE.

WE'RE LACKING GLOBAL GOVERNANCE.

I THINK THE FIVE PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL SHOULD GATHER AND SAY, WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT HAVING THE COMPETENCE TO SOLVE THE ISSUES.

LET'S HAVE ANOTHER GOVERNANCE, AND THEN WE HAVE TO HAVE REPRESENTATION FROM LATIN AMERICA, FROM ASIA, FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, GERMANY, JAPAN HAS TO JOIN THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

LET'S CHANGE.

LET'S CHANGE TO SEE IF WE CAN ESTABLISH AT LEAST HOPE THAT THE WORLD WILL HAVE MORE PEACE THAN WAR.

>> I UNDERSTAND, WE WANT MORE PEACE, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU, FINALLY, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TELL YOUR PEOPLE WHEN YOU SPEAK TO THEM IN A NATIONAL ADDRESS ABOUT THE CURRENT CRISIS?

IT'S BEING DESCRIBED AS THE WORST CRISIS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND BRAZIL IN MORE THAN A DECADE.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY TO YOUR PEOPLE?

>> Translator: WELL, I DON'T SEE A CRISIS YET.

SINCERELY, I --I THINK THAT IN NEGOTIATION, THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

EACH ONE SAYS WHAT THEY WANT, AND EACH ONE LISTENS WHAT THEY HAVE TO LISTEN.

BUT IT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES CANNOT GO ON LIKE THIS.

I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF AN EMPEROR TO MAKE A DECISION AND PUBLISH IT IN THE NEWSPAPER.

THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.

THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

AND NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP, TO WRITE A LETTER AND PUT IT AS A CONDITION, A PRECONDITION TO NEGOTIATION --NO.

>> OKAY.

>> AND THAT'S VERY --I CAN'T EVEN BELIEVE IN THAT.

WHEN I READ THE LETTER, I THOUGHT IT WAS FAKE NEWS, WHEN I SAW THE LETTER THROUGH THE MEDIA.

AND THEN I THOUGHT IT WAS A TRUE LETTER THAT WAS SIGNED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, SO, I CAN REASSURE YOU THAT BRAZIL, IN THE RIGHT MOMENT, WILL GIVE THE RIGHT ANSWER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LETTER.

AND IN MY ADDRESS TO THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE, I'M GOING TO TELL THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE WHAT I'M THINKING ABOUT ALL THIS, AND SINCERELY, I CAN REASSURE YOU THAT BRAZIL --BRAZIL DOES NOT ENJOY TROUBLEMAKERS, AND TROUBLE.

BRAZIL LIKES TO NEGOTIATE AND PEACE.

THAT'S HOW I ACT AND I THINK THAT'S HOW ALL PRESIDENTS SHOULD ACT.

AND THIS IS --I THINK, ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, TOO.

THAT BRAZIL IS AN HISTORIC ALLY OF THE U. S. BRAZIL PRAISES THE ECONOMIC RELATIONS THAT BRAZIL HAS WITH THE U.S., BRAZIL WILL NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING IMPOSED ON THE COUNTRY.

WE ACCEPT NEGOTIATIONS.

>> PRESIDENT LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA OF BRAZIL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ATLANTA >> Translator: THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND I HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL MAKE A REVIEW AND REVISE HIS OPINION.

>>> IN GAZA, DISASTER PILES UP ON DISASTER, WITH NO CEASE- FIRE IN SIGHT, AN APPARENT ISRAELI STRIKE HIT THE ENCLAVE'S ONLY CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY.

THE ONE POPE FRANCIS USED TO CALL ALMOST EVERY NIGHT BEFORE HIS DEATH.

TWO PEOPLE WERE KILLED, AND HIS SUCCESSOR POPE LEO SAYS THAT HE IS DEEPLY SADDENED BY THE NEWS.

THIS FOLLOWS A DEADLY CROWD CRUSH ON WEDNESDAY WHERE AT LEAST 20 PEOPLE WERE KILLED AT AN AID DISTRIBUTION SITE RUN BY THE CONTROVERSIAL GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION.

MEANWHILE, IN SYRIA, A FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE SEEMS TO BE HOLDING AFTER ISRAEL STRUCK DAMASCUS THIS WEEK, SAYING IT WAS DEFENDING THE MINORITY DRUZE POPULATION.

IN APRIL THIS YEAR, AMI AYALON, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE ISRAELI INTERNAL SECURITY SERVICE SHIN BET, SPOKE OUT ALONG WITH MULTIPLE OTHER FORMER SECURITY OFFICIALS.

HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM HAIFA.

THANK YOU.

FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SYRIA.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE SORT OF SUDDENLY TURNED UP, SAY, OH, MY GOD, ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT ISRAEL IS --IS BOMBING.

ISRAEL SAYS IT WANTS TO PROTECT THE MINORITY DRUZE POPULATION.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT OPENING YET ANOTHER FRONT HERE?

>> WELL, THE WAY I SEE IT, AND THE WAY I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE WAY THAT MOST ISRAELIS UNDERSTAND OUR -- I DON'T KNOW, INTERFERENCE IN -- OR MILITARY INTERFERENCE IN SYRIA, IT IS --WE ARE DEFENDING SOME OF THE DRUZE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN ATTACKED.

AND MANY OF THEM, PROBABLY, I DON'T KNOW, DOZENS, HUNDREDS, WERE KILLED BY --I BELIEVE, YOU KNOW, UNITS THAT WERE SENT BY THE SYRIAN PRESIDENT, SO --YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE HAVE A BIG MINORITY OF DRUZE CITIZENS IN ISRAEL.

WE OWE THEM.

THEY FEEL THAT THEIR BROTHERS ARE ASSASSINATED IN SYRIA, AND WE FIND OURSELVES IN A VERY, VERY SENSITIVE SITUATION.

NOW, IT IS A PROBLEM, THE WAY I SEE IT, PERSONALLY, I HATE THE IDEA THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE REALITY AND THE ONLY WAY THAT WE ACT IS BY THE USE OF MILITARY POWERFUL.

I FEEL THAT WE ENTERED ONLY BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY LANGUAGE THAT WE SPEAK, WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING HOW COMPLICATED THE SITUATION.

I HAVE TO REMIND MYSELF AND THE AUDIENCE, DRUZE, THEY HAVE MINORITIES IN LEBANON, IN SYRIA, IN ISRAEL, AND IN MANY OTHER PLACES, AND USUALLY, THEY FEEL THAT SAY ARE LOYAL TO THE STATE, TO THE COUNTRY IN WHICH THEY LIVE.

THIS IS THE CASE IN ISRAEL, THIS IS THE CASE IN LEBANON, AND, IN A WAY, THIS WAS THE CASE IN SYRIA.

SYRIA --DRUZE WERE PART OF THE THE --OF THE ASSAD REGIME.

THEY WERE DEFENDED BY THE MINORITY, AND THEY PARTICIPATED IN THE WARS, IN THE CIVIL WAR.

SO THERE ARE THREE MAJOR DRUZE COMMUNITIES -- >> OKAY.

>> --IN SYRIA.

ONE, WHICH IS TOTALLY AGAINST OUR INTERFERENCE.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF WARRIORS WHO ARE LOIL YAL TO THE SYRIAN PRESIDENT.

AND OTHERS, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR OUR ASSISTANCE.

>> YEAH.

>> SO, WE ENTERED WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING PROBABLY THE COMPLEXITY, AND I HOPE -- I HOPE --THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK AROUND OURSELVES, THERE IS A MAJOR AMERICAN INTEREST, A MAJOR TURKISH INTEREST, AND WE SHOULD TRY DIPLOMACY, AS WELL.

>> OKAY, WELL -- >> SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD TRY.

>> YEAH, WELL, ACTUALLY, IN THE AFTERMATH, THE PRESIDENT OF SYRIA SAID THAT HE IS WITHDRAWING HIS FORCES FROM THAT AREA, AND HE DOES VOW TO PROTECT THE DRUZE.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

NOW, LET'S MOVE ONTO ISRAEL AND GAZA, AND, YOU KNOW, DRILL DOWN INTO, YOU KNOW, YOUR CONCERNS, WHEN YOU WROTE THAT LETTER WITH YOUR OTHER INTELLIGENCE, YOU KNOW, AND MILITARY COLLEAGUES.

BUT I WANT TO FIRST ASK YOU, BECAUSE THERE'S A BIG ARTICLE BEHIND THE SCENES ARTICLE WRITTEN BY "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THAT --THAT ESSENTIALLY HE -- THE ALLEGATION THAT HE HAS CONTINUED THE WAR, BIBI NETANYAHU, IN ORDER TO KEEP HIS COALITION TOGETHER, AND STAY IN POWER.

MUCH OF IT, AS YOU KNOW, HAS BEEN REPORTED IN THE ISRAELI MEDIA.

BUT HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT, IF YOU'VE READ IT?

>> WELL, IT'S --I READ THE ARTICLE, I THINK IT'S A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ARTICLE, BUT I DIDN'T SEE --I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING NEW.

MOST OF THE ISRAELIS WILL AGREE AND, IN A WAY, WHEN YOU SEE THE POLLS, MAJORITY, EVEN AMONG PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR NETANYAHU, BELIEVE THAT HIS POLICIES LED, YOU KNOW, IN ORDER TO --TO MAKE SURE THAT HIS COALITION WILL NOT FALL APART.

AND --AND THE INTEREST, OR, THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL, OUR DEMOCRACY AND OUR SECURITY, IS NOT WHAT HE CARE ABOUT.

THIS IS THE WAY MOST ISRAELIS UNDERSTAND THIS WAR, AND THIS IS WHY THE MAJORITY OF THE ISRAELIS BELIEVE THAT THIS WAR SHOULD END.

IMMEDIATELY.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THERE IS A MAJOR RIFT BETWEEN MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS, AND OUR GOVERNMENT.

AND YES, I TOTALLY BELIEVE THAT WHAT WAS DESCRIBED IN THIS ARTICLE, ARE DETAILS THAT PROVE WHAT MOST ISRAELIS UNDERSTAND.

THIS WAR IS A POLITICAL WAR, IT STARTED, BY THE WAY, IN THE BEGINNING, IT WAS A JUST WAR, WE RESPONDED TO A MASSACRE, WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY OTHER OPTION, BUT AFTER TEN MONTHS, WHEN MOST OF THE MILITARY GOALS WERE ACHIEVED, WE HAVE TO END THIS WAR, TO BRING BACK ALL THE HOSTAGES, AND TO START THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, TO DEAL WITH THE DAY AFTER.

>> YEAH.

>> BECAUSE WITHOUT THE DAY AFTER, WITHOUT A CLEAR DESCRIPTION OF THE REALITY, POLITICAL REALITY OF THE DAY AFTER, WE CANNOT SAY THAT WE ACHIEVED A VICTORY.

WE ACHIEVED A MAJOR, A MAJOR UNPREDICTABLE MILITARY ACHIEVEMENT, BUT WE DID NOT WIN THIS WAR.

>> YEAH, WELL, THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE I WANT TO ASK YOU, THEN, TO --WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S CONTINUING?

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK, FOR INSTANCE, WHEN WE SEE VIDEO, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO PLAY IT NOW, BUT YOU KNOW, THESE MILITARY SHOOTING AT PALESTINIANS WHO ARE STARVING AND HUNGRY, TRYING TO COME AND GET FOOD.

EVERY DAY, THERE'S DOZENS OF PALESTINIANS, MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN WHO ARE KILLED BY THOSE GAZA HUMANITARIAN AREAS, AND WE HAVE THESE PICTURES.

AS A FORMER GENERAL IN THE IDF, WHAT DO THESE IMAGES SAY TO YOU?

SOLDIERS WHO ARE KIND OF --LIKE THE ONES THAT YOU USED TO COMMAND ARE DOING THIS STUFF RIGHT NOW.

>> AS A FORMER ADMIRAL, GENERAL, BUT YES, I'LL GIVE YOU AN ANSWER, I CANNOT JUSTIFY --I CANNOT DEFEND WHAT WE ARE DOING IN GAZA.

AND, IN A WAY, WE WE SAID IT SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, WHEN WE, YOU KNOW, PUBLICLY, SAID EXACTLY THAT WE CANNOT JUSTIFY THIS WAR, BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE DOING IN GAZA IS SOMETHING THAT NOBODY CAN JUSTIFY.

AND ESPECIALLY, AND THIS IS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, IT CAME TO MY UNDERSTANDING, FIVE DAYS AFTER THE 7th OF OCTOBER, BECAUSE FIVE DAYS AFTER THE WAR, THE WAR CABINET WAS CREATED, WHEN THEY JOINED NETANYAHU, IN ORDER TO, YOU KNOW, CREATE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF GOVERNMENT, AND --AND TO OVERCOME, TO WIN THIS WAR.

BUT THEY DECIDED, AFTER PROBABLY TWO OR THREE HOURS, NOT TO TOUCH, AND NOT TO DEAL WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE --THE DAY AFTER.

BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR TO THEM THAT ONCE THEY WOULD TOUCH, OR WILL TRY TO DISCUSS A DAY AFTER, THE COALITION WILL FALL APART.

BECAUSE THIS COALITION THAT NETANYAHU CREATED, WHEN HE WAS ELECTED TWO YEARS AGO, IS FULL OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY DREAM, NOT ONLY TO CONQUER THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, BUT YOU KNOW, TO GO BACK TO BUILD SETTLEMENTS IN --IN GAZA AND TO ANNEX MOST AREAS IN THE WEST BANK.

SO --WHICH IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE BY MOST ISRAELIS, AND BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

SO, THIS GOVERNMENT WILL NOT SURVIVE ONCE THIS DEBATE, WHICH IS A TOTALLY ISRAELI DEBATE, BUT IT WILL SHAPE THE REGION, AND IT WILL CREATE A MAJOR IMPACT ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

SO, IF YOU ASK ME, THIS IS THE TIME FOR US.

>> CAN I -- >> NOT TO POSTPOSTANYTHING, TO END THE WAR, AND START A NEGOTIATION, OR THE ISRAELI DEBATE ON THE DAY AFTER.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, AGAIN, AN ADMIRAL, SORRY, BUT SOMEBODY WHO'S LED FORCES -- >> IT'S OKAY.

IT'S OKAY.

>> THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, STATISTICS ABOUT SOLDIERS WHO HAVE BEEN TAKING THEIR OWN LIVES, IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS AGO, FOUR SOLDIERS.

IN LAST YEAR, 21 SOLDIERS.

SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR AT LEAST 15 MORE HAVE TAKEN THEIR OWN LIVES.

THIS IS --THIS IS VERY TOUGH, AND IT'S A LOT DUE TO MENTAL ISSUES APPARENTLY CAUSED BY THIS MILITARY SERVICE, OR MILITARY SERVICE.

WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL ABOUT WHAT THESE SOLDIERS AND MILITARY ARE BEING --ARE BEING TOLD TO DO?

AND SECONDLY, DO YOU AGREE WITH FORMER OFFICIALS WHO HAVE PUBLICLY DESCRIBED WHAT THEY ARE DOING, WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING IN GAZA, AS AMOUNTING TO ETHNIC CLEANSING AND WAR CRIMES?

>> NO, I --I'M NOT GOING TO USE TERMS WHICH HAVE A CONNOTATION OF ILLEGAL ASPECT OF THIS --OF THIS LANGUAGE.

YES, I THINK THAT EVERY WAR WITHOUT A CLEAR AND ACHIEVABLE DEFINITION OF THE END OF THE WAR AND THE DAY AFTER IS NOT A JUST WAR.

AND, IN A WAY, YES, IT IS SOMETHING THAT --THAT I CANNOT DEFEND, WHETHER I WILL CALL IT A CRIMINAL ACT OR --OR ANY OTHER TERMS THAT EVERYBODY CAN USE.

AGAIN, WHAT I'M SAYING, UNLESS WE SHALL UNDERSTAND WHAT AND WHY ARE WE FIGHTING FOR?

AND WHEN YOU MENTION, YOU KNOW, SOLDIERS WHO ARE COMMITTING SUICIDE, WE SEE IT IN EVERY --IN EVERY WAR WITHOUT A CLEAR END.

WE SAW IT IN AFGHANISTAN, IN IRAQ, IN THE AMERICAN CASE, WE SAW IT IN --WE SEE IT, BY THE WAY, IN RUSSIA TODAY IN THE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW, A WAR WITHOUT A CLEAR END, AND WITHOUT A CLEAR POLITICAL GOAL, IS SOMETHING THAT, AS A SOLDIER, AND AS A COMMANDER, I FIND IT VERY, VERY -- VERY DIFFICULT.

>> YES.

>> TO SEND PEOPLE TO THE BATTLEFIELD.

SO, IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SEE IN EVERY NEVER-ENDING WAR.

>> OKAY.

>> OR THIS WAR THAT WE ARE FIGHTING TODAY.

>> YEAH.

WELL, LET'S HOPE.

AMI AYALON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

> >> NOW, IN TIMES OF WAR, CRISIS, AND DISASTER, IT CAN BE HARD TO FIND ANY OPTIMISM, BUT OUR NEXT GUEST URGES US NOT TO GIVE UP.

AUTHOR LIZZIE WADE'S NEW BOOK "APOCALYPSE" RETRACES HUMAN HISTORY, REFLECTING ON HUMAN RESILIENCE AND THE ABILITY TO REBUILD AFTER EXPERIENCING CATASTROPHE.

FROM THE BLACK PLAGUE TO THE COVID PANDEMIC, SHE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN THAT DESPITE THE PAIN AND DESTRUCTION, THERE ARE VALUABLE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED FROM THIS HISTORY.

>> LIZZIE WADE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "APOCALYPSE. "

YOU START IT BY SAYING, LIFE IN THE 2020s IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART.

IT FEELS LIKE HISTORY SUDDENLY SPED UP, LEAVING US SCRAMBLING FOR A FOOTHOLD, BUT YOU'RE ACTUALLY KIND OF OPTIMISTIC.

WHAT'S THE SILVER LINING HERE?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE SILVER LINING FOR ME RESEARCHING THIS BOOK, AND ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO WRITE IT IS BECAUSE HOWEVER SCARED I AM OF WHAT WE'RE FACING IN THE WORLD TODAY, I FOUND IT REALLY HEARTENING AND ENCOURAGING THAT SO MANY OF OUR ANCESTORS EXPERIENCED VERY SIMILAR THINGS, AND NOT ONLY EXPERIENCED THEM, BUT ADAPTED TO THEM, SURVIVED THEM, AND SOMETIMES EVEN CAME OUT BETTER ON THE OTHER SIDE.

>> YEAH, THAT'S REALLY FASCINATING.

I MEAN, I NEVER THOUGHT --PROBABLY LIKE MOST PEOPLE, WHEN I HEAR THE WORD APOCALYPSE, I THINK OF THIS DISASTER, THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T RECOVER FROM, THAT WAS UNEXPECTED, BUT YOU ACTUALLY REALLY TAKE THE TIME TO BREAK DOWN THAT THERE'S DIFFERENT, FIRST OF ALL, TIMES OF APOCALYPSES THAT CAN BE CAUSED BY, YOU KNOW, NATURAL EVENTS, HUMAN-MADE EVENTS, POLITICAL EVENTS, ALL KINDS OF REASONS.

WAS THERE A THROUGH-LINE ON WHAT MADE SOCIETIES SUCCESSFULLY COME OUT OF IT?

>> YEAH, I THINK --WHEN I WAS TRYING TO DECIDE ON A TERM FOR THIS BOOK, I WANTED KIND OF A TERM THAT WOULD ENCOMPASS, JUST AS YOU SAY, MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF EVENTS, NOT JUST A LIMITED NATURAL DISASTER, BUT SOMETHING MORE LONG LASTING AND TRANSFORMATIVE, AND THAT WAS THE KEY WORD FOR ME, A TRANSFORMATION.

IF A SOCIETY THAT WENT INTO ONE OF THESE EVENTS WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE SOCIETY THAT CAME OUT OF IT, THAT FOR ME COUNTED AS AN APOCALYPSE.

>> AND YOU POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE VERY DIFFERENT REACTIONS, AND WE CAN'T NECESSARILY PREDICT HOW A SOCIETY IS TRANSFORMED.

YOU KIND OF JUXTAPOSED A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT SOCIETIES, ONE IN THE INDIS VALLEY, TELL US WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

AND YOU KIND OF COMPARE THAT TO EUROPE AND THE BLACK DEATH.

TELL US.

>> YEAH, SO, HARAPA WAS A SOCIETY THAT BEGAN TO COLLAPSE AROUND 4,200 YEARS AGO AND EXISTED ABOUT 800 YEARS BEFORE THAT.

IT WAS PART OF A LARGER INDIS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.

WHEN ARCHAEOLOGISTS STUDY NOT ONLY HOW THE CITY WAS LAID OUT AND ORGANIZED, BUT ALSO THE SKELETONS OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BURIED THERE, THEY FIND THAT HARAPA AT ITS HEIGHT WAS VERY COSMOPOLITAN, AND VERY EGALITARIAN, LIKE, THERE'S NO IMAGES OF A KING, THERE'S NO PALACES, THE GRANDEST ARCHITECTURE AND THE MOST SORT OF INVESTMENT IN TIME AND RESOURCES SEEMS TO GO INTO PUBLIC SPACES, THAT MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE COULD USE.

AND WE KNOW FROM HOW THE, YOU KNOW, HOW GOODS WERE MOVING AROUND, TRADE ROUTES AND ALSO THE ISOTOPES OF THE PEOPLE BURIED THERE, YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, GREW UP SOMEWHERE ELSE AND CAME TO HARAPA LATER IN LIFE AND FORMED THAT SOCIETY AND DYING THERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, AROUND 4,200 YEARS AGO, THERE'S --THE MONSOON CYCLE GETS DISRUPTED, SO, IT'S SORT OF EQUIVALENT TO A DROUGHT.

BUT THIS CLIMATE CHANGE MADE THINGS REALLY UNPREDICTABLE IN WAYS THAT THEY HAD NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE, AND WHAT WE SEE IN HARAPA IS A REAL INCREASE IN INEQUALITY, PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE LIVING OUTSIDE OF THE CITY'S WALLS START TO BECOME MUCH SICKER, SUFFER POSSIBLY VIOLENT DEATHS.

THE PEOPLE LIVING IN HARAPA AFTER THIS --AFTER MOST PEOPLE HAVE LEFT, ALSO ARE SICKER, SEEM TO EXPERIENCE MORE VIOLENCE THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES, AND I THINK FOR ME, THAT WAS PART OF SHOWING THAT, LIKE, APOCALYPSES REALLY COME FOR SOCIETY'S WEAK POINTS, SO PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, AS E GAL GALITARIAN AS IT WAS, THERE WAS PROBABLY SOCIAL DIVISIONS THAT KIND OF GET SMOOTHED OUT IN --LIKE HOW ARCHAEOLOGISTS CAN SEE IT TODAY, AND, YOU KNOW, APOCALYPSES REALLY AMPLIFIED, OR PERHAPS CREATED, THOSE SOCIAL TENSIONS, THAT WERE GOING INTO IT.

AND IN THE BLACK DEATH, SOMETHING SORT OF DIFFERENT HAPPENED, WHICH IS, IN EUROPE, YOU KNOW, THIS HORRIFYING DISEASE SWEPT THROUGH AND KILLED POTENTIALLY OVER HALF OF ALL PEOPLE IN THE MATTER OF FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, AND WHEN YOU'RE COMING OUT OF THAT, IT ACTUALLY SEEMS TO INCREASE EQUALITY AND DECREASE INEQUALITY IN WHAT HAD BEEN A VERY, VERY, VERY UNEQUAL SOCIETY.

SO, WITH FEWER WORKERS AVAILABLE LIVING TO KEEP THESE, YOU KNOW, KEEP THE FARMS RUNNING, KEEP THE MANOR HOUSES RUNNING, DO THE ESSENTIAL LABOR OF SOCIETY, THESE WORKERS HAD A LOT MORE --A LOT MORE AGENCY, A LOT MORE DECISION- MAKING OVER THEIR LIVES, A LOT MORE BARGAINING POWER IN WAYS THAT WE WOULD THINK ABOUT IT TODAY.

OF COURSE, THEY HAD DIFFERENT VOCABULARY FOR THESE THINGS AND HOW THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT LIVING THEIR LIVES.

BUT YOU CAN SEE, IN THE ELITE WRITING AROUND THIS TIME, AS WELL AS THE -- THE BONES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED AFTER THE BLACK DEATH, THAT IT SEEMS LIKE THE POORER CLASSES, THE WORKING CLASSES, WERE MUCH HEALTHIER AFTER THIS PLAGUE.

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE BOOK IS, YOU HAVE THESE KIND OF SCENES WHERE YOU PAINT LIFE IN THESE SOCIETIES, AND, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THESE ARE COMPOSITE CHARACTERS, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO INTERVIEW SOMEBODY 4,000 YEARS AGO, BUT YOU BASE THIS ON RESEARCH FROM SCIENCE THAT'S AVAILABLE TODAY, AND THAT WAS REALLY FASCINATING TO ME.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT ARCHAEOLOGY HAS ADVANCED TO THIS LEVEL, OR CLIMATE SCIENCE, OR ALL THE DIFFERENT KIND OF FIELDS, AND HOW SPECIFIC WE CAN GET TO FIGURING OUT WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON WHOSE BONES OR DNA WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO SEE TODAY.

>> YEAH, ARCHAEOLOGY HAS COME BY LEEPS LEAPS AND BOUNDS IN THE LAST FEW DECADES, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES AVAILABLE, TO ARCHAEOLOGISTS AND SORT OF ALSO IN THE FRAMEWORKS THEY USE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT TO LEARN, WHAT --WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT A PAST SOCIETY, WHAT KINDS OF QUESTIONS THEY CAN ASK AND WANT TO ANSWER, SO, YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED THE STUDY OF ISOTOPES.

SO, WHEN YOU DRINK WATER IN A CERTAIN LOCATION, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF CHEMICALS, THE MINERALS IN THE WATER BECOME STORED IN YOUR TEETH, AND WHEN, AS A CHILD, WHEN YOUR TEETH ARE GROWING, SO, IF YOU CAN COMPARE THE SIGNATURE IN A PERSON'S TEETH TO THE PLACE, THE GEOLOGICAL SIGNATURE OF THE PLACE WHERE THEY DIED, YOU CAN SEE IF A PERSON MIGRATED THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFE.

AND I THINK THAT'S JUST SO FASCINATING, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT THE QUESTIONS THAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS WANT TO ANSWER HAVE REALLY EXPANDED BEYOND, YOU KNOW, WHO WAS THE KING OF THIS SOCIETY AND WHAT GREAT STUFF CAN WE FIND IN HIS TOMB, TO MUCH MORE, WHO WERE THE REGULAR PEOPLE, WHAT WERE THEIR LIVES LIKE?

HOW ARE THEY AFFECTED BY AND INTERACTING WITH THEIR ENVIRONMENT, WITH THE POLITICAL STRUCTURE OF THEIR SOCIETY?

AND WHEN IT COMES TO APOCALYPSES, HOW THEY RECOVERED AFTERWARDS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT KIND OF SOCIAL TRANSFORMATIONS, AND YOU HIGHLIGHTED ONE THAT HAPPENED IN NORTHERN PERU.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> YES, IN NORTHERN PERU, AROUND 5,800 YEARS AGO OR SO, EL NINO SUDDENLY STARTED HAPPENING.

SO, EL NINO, YOU KNOW, WE ALL KNOW IT TODAY, IT'S THIS PHENOMENON THAT EFFECTS EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, THOUGH IN NORTHERN PERU, IT PROBABLY EFFECTS THE MOST DIRECTLY, AND SEVERELY, SO MOST OF THE TIME, THE SEA --THE PACIFIC OCEAN ALONG THE COAST OF PERU IS QUITE COLD.

THE OCEAN WOULD SUDDENLY BECOME WARM AND THAT WOULD LEAD TO A LOT MORE ING INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, FLASH FLOODS, RAIN, YOU KNOW, ALL THE FISH ADAPTED TO THE COLD OCEAN DYING, AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE ENVIRONMENT WOULD SUDDENLY TURN INSIDE-OUT.

AND THIS WOULD HAPPEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF SIMILAR --EXPERIENCING SOMETHING SIMILAR TO US, WHERE WE THINK WE KNOW WHAT OUR LOCAL ENVIRONMENTS ARE LIKE, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO ADAPT TO THEM, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO LIVE IN THEM, WHAT THEY PROVIDE FOR US, AND HAVING THAT SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR, YOU KNOW?

AND IN THE CASE OF PERU, JUST BECOME THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT USUALLY IS, AND HOW MUCH GRIEF AND CONFUSION AND, YOU KNOW, SADNESS AND TERROR THAT MIGHT HAVE GENERATED, BUT WHAT I ALSO SAW, OR WHAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE FOUND, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE LIVING AT THIS TIME WERE, YOU KNOW, QUITE --WERE LIVING MOSTLY IN SMALLER GROUPS, MOVING AROUND, AGAIN, HUNTER/GATHERERS, AND WE MIGHT THINK THAT AN APOCALYPSE LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, SUDDENLY MAKE THE FIGHTING FOR TERRITORY OR FIGHTING FOR RESOURCES, BUT WHAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE FOUND IS THAT IN THE CENTURIES AND MILLENNIA AFTER EL KNEE NINO CAME TOGETHER IN WAYS THEY HAVEN'T BEFORE, OFTEN ACTUALLY IN THE ENVIRONMENTS THAT EL NINO WAS TRANSFORMING, BY CREATING WETLANDS AND, YOU KNOW, A BUNCH OF --LEAVING BEHIND A BUNCH OF MUD FROM LANDSLIDES.

AND ONE OF THE VERY FIRST HUGE MONUMENTS IN PERU THAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN COOPERATION OF HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO BUILD WAS ACTUALLY BUILT FROM THE MUD LEFT BEHIND BY THESE EL NINE OWE EVENTS, AND I JUST THOUGHT MAYBE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS NOT AN APOCALYPSE PULLING PEOPLE APART, BUT REALLY BRINGING THEM TOGETHER IN A WAY THAT THEY MAY HAVE NEVER -- NEVER EVEN IMAGINED DOING BEFORE.

>> YOU ALSO ASK THE READER TO LOOK AMOUNT MEXICO CITY AS AN EXAMPLE OF A POST-APOCALYPTIC CIVILIZATION.

EXPLAIN.

>> YEAH, SO, I LIVED IN MEXICO CITY FOR OVER TEN YEARS, AND IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE INSPIRATIONS FOR THIS BOOK.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK MEXICO CITY WAS BORN OF AN APOCALYPSE, THE CONQUEST OF THE AZTEC EMPIRE BY THE SPANISH EMPIRE, IN 1521.

SO, IN THE CASE OF THE AZTEC EMPIRE, IT WAS AN EMPIRE, THERE WAS A LOT OF RESISTANCE TO THEIR RULE, A LOT OF INEQUALITY, AND, SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE EUROPEAN INVADERS ARRIVED, SOME OF THE AZTECS, YOU KNOW, LONG-TERM ENEMIES ALLIED WITH THESE NEWCOMERS, AND KIND OF USED THEM AS WEAPONS, KIND OF, AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE STORY WAS ACTUALLY DRIVEN BY INDIGENOUS AGENCY, INDIGENOUS HISTORY, INDIGENOUS POLITICS, THAT STRETCH BACK CENTURIES BEFORE THERE WAS EVER A EUROPEAN IN MEXICO.

AND THAT THE EUROPEANS THEMSELVES DIDN'T ALWAYS QUITE UNDERSTAND.

AND, YOU KNOW, SO, YOU HAVE THIS REALLY INTERESTING, FASCINATING APOCALYPSE AND, YOU KNOW, SHORT, LIKE, ONLY THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

AND MEXICO CITY'S OLD NAME IS IN RUBBLE, IT'S BEING RECONSTRUCTED FROM THE STONES, LITERALLY OUT OF THE RUBBLE OF THIS APOCALYPSE, MEXICO CITY IS BUILT, AND REBORN, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S --WE'RE STILL SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT, RIGHT?

SO, THE AZTEC CITY WAS T ON A LAKE.

THERE WAS AN ISLAND, AND THE CENTER OF THE CITY WAS ON IT, AND THEN THERE WAS ALL THESE FARMLANDS, CANALS, AND ARTIFICIAL ISLANDS AND IT WAS JUST A REALLY KIND OF AMPHIBIOUS ENVIRONMENT THAT THE AZTECS HAD FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO A LOT ABOUT HOW TO MANAGE THE WATER, HOW TO LIVE WITH THE WATER, AND WHEN EUROPEANS ARRIVED, DESTROYED ALL THIS HYDRAULIC INFRASTRUCTURE, AND EITHER JUST DIDN'T REALIZE, OR DIDN'T WANT TO, REBUILD IT, THEY NEVER QUITE MANAGED TO FIGURE, LIKE, FIGURE OUT HOW TO LIVE WITH THE WATER AS THE AZTECS DID, AND THEY DRAINED THE LAKE, AND THAT'S LEFT US, YOU KNOW, THIS HUGE MEGACITY OF OVER 20 MILLION PEOPLE, I THINK KIND OF TEETERING ON THIS PILE OF MUD, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, CREATES DEVASTATING EARTHQUAKES, EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY FAULTS CLOSE TO MEXICO CITY.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE STILL SUFFERING THE RAINY SEASON, JUST STARTED A FEW WEEKS AGO HERE, AND WE'RE ALREADY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S FLOODS EVERY WEEK, AND IT'S BEEN LIKE THIS FOR 420 YEARS AND COUNTING.

AND SO, IT'S LIKE, WE'RE STILL SUFFERING VERY IMMEDIATELY, THE EFFECTS OF COLON IA LISM AND THE DECISIONS MADE.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CHANGE IN MEXICAN SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF COMMUNITIES THAT COME TOGETHER AFTER THESE DISASTERS.

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S BOTH POST-APOCALYPTIC TRAGEDY AND A POST-APOCALYPTIC OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT?

AND I THINK LIVING EVERY DAY WITH THAT KIND OF PARADOX AND COGNITIVE DISSONANCE REALLY MADE ME THINK ABOUT APOCALYPSES DIFFERENTLY AND MADE ME WANT TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

>> YOU ALSO SHOW US THAT THERE ARE KIND OF DIFFERENT SCALES OF APOCALYPSES, SO TO SPEAK.

ON THE ONE HAND, IN OUR LIFETIMES, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER THE PANDEMIC TO BE AN APOCALYPTIC EVENT FOR THEM, IF THEY LOST SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILY, AND THEY CERTAINLY --THE ENTIRE WORLD, FOR A VERY SMALL MOMENT, EXPERIENCED LOCKDOWN AND, YOU KNOW --WE HAD THIS KIND OF SHARED EXPERIENCE.

>> I MEAN, I THINK YOU CAN SEE IN THE PANDEMIC STORY, PARTICULARLY, AND IT'S REALLY REFLECTED IN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE BLACK DEATH, A REAL RESISTANCE SO CULTURAL CHANGES THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY NECESSITATED BY THESE DISEASES, AND, YOU KNOW, AND AFTER THE BLACK DEATH, THEY WERE PASSING LAWS UP UNTIL 40 YEARS AFTER THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE GENERATIONS AT THAT POINT, TRYING TO GET THE WORKING CLASS BACK IN LINE, BACK ACCEPTING WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE LIMITED POORLY PAID POVERTY-STRICKEN LIVES THEY HAD BEFORE, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT --YOU CAN SEE IN THE LENGTH OF TIME OF THOSE LAWS JUST HOW -- HOW -- HOW LONG IT TAKES FOR THESE --FOR ALL OF THE RIPPLE EFFECTS TO PLAY OUT.

AND I THINK FOR ME, THINKING ABOUT APOCALYPSES, INCLUDING THE PANDEMIC, WHICH I REALLY THINK WE WON'T KNOW, EVEN POTENTIALLY WITHIN OUR LIFETIMES ALL THE EFFECTS IT'S GOING TO HAVE ON US PERSONALLY AND E PERSONALLY ON OUR SOCIETIES, BUT FOR ME, THINKING ABOUT APOCALYPSES, ONE REALLY PORT AND OFTEN ENCOURAGING THING TO CONSIDER, IS THAT APOCK LPSS ARE MOMENTS THAT WHEN THINGS THAT SEEM IMPOSSIBLE BEFORE SUDDENLY BECOME POSSIBLE.

AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THOSE THINGS ARE NECESSARILY AN IMPROVEMENT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'RE NECESSARILY A TRAGEDY.

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT SOCIETIES ACROSS HUMAN HISTORY HAVE EXPERIENCED APOCALYPSES VERY DIFFERENTLY, DEPENDING ON WHO WE ARE AS A SOCIETY.

FOR THE ELITES, THE BLACK DEATH WAS A TERRIFYING TRAGEDY, NOT ONLY THE LOSS OF LIFE, BUT THE LOSS OF POWER, AND CONTROL.

FOR THE WORKING CLASSES, WE DON'T HAVE AS MANY OF THEIR FEELINGS WRITTEN DOWN, IF ANY, BUT WE CAN SEE THEM, YOU KNOW, REFUSING TO ACCEPT THIS PRE-PLAGUE STATUS QUO IN THE WRITINGS OF THE ELITE.

SO, YOU CAN SORT OF SEE HOW PEOPLE ARE HAVING DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES.

AND, YES, THINGS THAT WOULD HAVE SEEMED IMPOSSIBLE BEFORE ARE SUDDENLY ON THE TABLE, AND EVERYTHING IS UP FOR GRABS AFTER AN APOCALYPSE, AND EVEN DURING, SOMETIMES, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, SEEING THESE EVENTS, NOT ONLY AS MOMENTS OF LOSS, WHICH THEY CERTAINLY ARE, BUT ALSO AS OPPORTUNITIES AND DOORS THAT WE CAN WALK THROUGH INTO A WORLD THAT WE MAYBE COULDN'T EVEN HAVE IMAGINED BEFORE.

I THINK THAT --THAT BRINGS ME A LOT OF POEM.

>> LIZZIE WADE, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "APOCALYPSE," THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY, FOLLOWING IN PRINCESS DIANA'S FOOTSTEPS, PRINCE HARRY IS QUITE LITERALLY WALKING THE SAME PATH HIS MOTHER DID 28 YEARS AGO, VISITING ANGOLA'S ACTIVE MINEFIELDS AS PART OF THE HALO TRUST EFFORT TO CLEAN UP AFTER THE 2002 CIVIL WAR THERE.

THE TRUST HAS CLEARED 120,000 OF THOSE DEADLY DEVICES, BUT THEY ESTIMATE THOUSANDS ARE STILL LEFT.

DIANA'S ORIGINAL WALK IN 1997 PAVED THE WAY FOR THE TREATY TO BAN LANDMINES LATER THAT SAME YEAR.

TO THIS DAY, THE EFFORTS TO CLEAR OLD WAR ZONE -- THAT IS IT FOR A PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.