>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO..

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> HE WAS HIT.

HE WAS BEATEN.

HE LOST CONSCIOUSNESS, BUT NOBODY COULD GET TO HIM.

>> AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, KILLED BY ISRAELI SETTLERS.

WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE ESCALATING VIOLENCE IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

>>> THEN, CLASHES IN SOUTHERN SYRIA, AS ISRAEL HITS TARGETS SAYING IT IS PROTECTING THE DRUZE COMMUNITY.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN FOR SYRIA AND ITS STABILITY?

I ASKED DAREEN KHALIFA FROM THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP.

>>> PLUS, AS THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT WARNS THAT WAR CRIMES MAY BE COMMITTED IN DARFUR, WHERE IS THE ACCOUNTABILITY?

I SPEAK TO THE COURTS PROSECUTOR, LUIS MORENO OCAMPO, AND KHALID MUSTAFA MEDANI.

>> IT'S AN ISSUE WHEN I CRITICIZE THIS BILL.

SIMPLE MATTERS OF DECENCY, ABOUT US AS A SOCIETY.

>> FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY, LAWRENCE SUMMERS, GIVES WALTER ISAACSON HIS TAKE ON PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SWEEPING DOMESTIC POLICY BILL.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

WE BEGIN TONIGHT IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK WERE ISRAEL HAS RAMPED UP ITS OPERATIONS RECENTLY, DISPLACING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS AND RAISING ENTIRE COMMUNITIES, AS IT SAYS IT IS TARGETING MILITANTS THERAPY SETTLER VIOLENCE IS ALSO ON THE RISE.

NEARLY 1000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY OR SETTLERS SINCE HAMAS ATTACKED ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

ONE OF THOSE IS A 28-YEAR-OLD PALESTINIAN AMERICAN, SAIF MUSALLET, BORN AND RAISED IN FLORIDA.

WITNESSES REPORT THAT HE WAS SETTLERS, AND NOW, HIS FAMILY IS DEMANDING JUSTICE.

JEREMY DIAMOND JOINS US NOW FROM TEL AVIV WITH MORE ON THE STORY.

JEREMY, I KNOW YOU GOT TO SPEND SOME TIME WITH HIS FATHER.

WHAT MORE DID YOU LEARN ABOUT HIM?

>> YES, LISTEN, SAIF MUSALLET WAS AN AMERICAN.

HE WAS BORN IN PORT CHARLOTTE, FLORIDA, RAISED THERE.

HE OWNED AN ICE CREAM SHOP WITH HIS FATHER IN TAMPA.

HE HAD ARRIVED IN THE WEST BANK TO VISIT HIS MOTHER AND THE REST OF HIS FAMILY ABOUT A MONTH EARLIER, AND ON FRIDAY, HE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH BY ISRAELI SETTLERS, ACCORDING TO HIS FAMILY.

IN THE DAYS BEFORE HIS DEATH, HE TOLD HIS FATHER THAT HE WAS STARTING TO THINK ABOUT MARRIAGE, SOMETHING HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO FULFILL.

IN THE BACK OF AN AMBULANCE, SAIF MUSALLET'S AUNT SAYS ONE FINAL GOODBYE.

SHE IS FAR FROM ALONE.

HUNDREDS IN THIS WEST BANK TOWN HAVE COME TO HONOR THE AMERICAN SON, WHO IS DEEPLY ROOTED IN HIS PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY.

SAIF WAS KILLED ON FRIDAY, JUST TWO WEEKS BEFORE HIS 21st BREATH DAVID --BIRTHDAY.

BEATEN TO DEATH BY ISRAELI SETTLERS, ACCORDING TO HIS FAMILY.

THOSE SETTLERS ALSO SHOT AND KILLED ANOTHER PALESTINIAN MAN IN THE SAME ATTACK, ACCORDING TO EYEWITNESSES.

IT IS A SENSELESS, YET ALL TOO COMMON OUTCOME IN THE WEST BANK.

>> TODAY, IT'S AN AMERICAN CITIZEN BEING PUT TO REST HERE, BUT OVER THE LAST 20 MONTHS OF THIS WAR, NEARLY 1000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE WEST BANK AND EAST JERUSALEM, ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS, BUT TODAY, SAIF MUSALLET'S FAMILY IS DEMANDING AN AMERICAN INVESTIGATION INTO HIS DEATH.

>> WE WANT JUSTICE.

>> REPORTER:'S FATHER WAS HOME IN FLORIDA, WHERE HE RUNS AN ICE CREAM SHOP WITH HIS SON.

HE GOT THE CALL THAT SAIF HAD BEEN ATTACKED BY SETTLERS.

>> YOU NEVER THINK IT IS YOUR HAPPENING TOO.

AND THEN, I GOT WORD THAT IT WAS MY SON.

HE WAS HIT.

HE WAS BEATEN.

HE LOST CONSCIOUSNESS, BUT NOBODY COULD GET TO HIM.

THE AMBULANCE COULD NOT COME IN.

WHY?

BECAUSE THE IDF RESTRICTED THAT.

THE IDF BLOCKED THAT.

>> Reporter: YOU HOLD THE ISRAELI MILITARY -- >> I HOLD THE ISRAELI MILITARY JUST AS RESPONSIBLE AS THE SETTLERS AND THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT FOR NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.

>> Reporter: THE STATE DEPARTMENT SAYS IT IS AWARE OF SAIF'S DEATH, BUT DECLINED TO COMMENT FURTHER ON CALLS FOR AN INVESTIGATION.

ISRAELI AUTHORITIES SAY THEY ARE INVESTIGATING, BUT HAVE NOT MADE ANY ARRESTS.

FOR TWO MONTHS NOW, PALESTINIANS HERE SAY ISRAELI SETTLERS HAVE BEEN ENCROACHING ON THEIR LAND AND TERRORIZING PALESTINIANS, WHO TRY AND ACCESS IT.

THIS WAS THE SCENE ON FRIDAY AS SAIF AND OTHER PALESTINIANS TRY TO REACH THEIR FARMLANDS.

HE SAID HE SAW SETTLERS CHASE AFTER A MAN, HE WOULD LATER LEARN WAS SAIF.

>> THEY RAN UP THE HILL FOR THEY STARTED BEATING HIM WITH STICKS.

>> Reporter: BY THE TIME HE REACHED SAIF'S BODY, HE WAS ALREADY DEAD.

AS WE HEAD TO THE LOCATION WHERE SAIF'S BODY WAS RETRIEVED, A WHITE VEHICLE SUDDENLY APPEARS BEHIND US.

>> WE HAVE A GROUP OF SETTLERS, NOW, FOLLOWING US IN THEIR VEHICLE.

THEY PUT THEIR MASKS ON, AS WELL, WHICH IS A CONCERNING INDICATION.

>> Reporter: AT AN INTERSECTION, THE SETTLERS GET OUT AND TRY TO PELT OUR VEHICLE.

WE MANAGED TO APPROACH A NEARBY ISRAELI POLICE VEHICLE, AND THE SETTLERS TURNED AROUND.

MINUTES AFTER THE BORDER POLICE HEAD OUT TO SEARCH FOR THE SETTLERS, WE ARE AMBUSHED.

>> SHOOT.

SHOOT.

SHOOT.

>> Reporter: GO, GO, GO.

KEEP DRIVING.

THE MASKED MEN SMASHED THE REAR WINDSHIELD OF HER CAR, BUT WE MANAGED TO SPEED OFF UNHARMED.

>> THEY TURNED.

THEY TURNED.

>> Reporter: IT'S JUST A SMALL WINDOW INTO THE REALITY HERE BUT >> IT WOULD HAVE TAKE US ONE MORE SECOND.

>> Reporter: YOUR SON WAS ALSO KILLED?

>> JANUARY, 2024, BY A SETTLER, SIMPLY, JUST BEING HERE.

>> Reporter: WHAT DOES THAT FEEL LIKE?

TO CONSTANTLY TELL THE WORLD WHAT IS HAPPENING.

>> YOU SCREAM TO THE WHOLE WORLD, AND THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING.

SIMPLY, SILENT.

SEEING ALL OF THESE MOTHERS PUT THEIR SONS DOWN --THEY WORK SO HARD TO RAISE THEM UP FOR 20 YEARS, AND YOU PICK THEM UP AND PUT THEM IN THE GROUND UNDER THE SKY, AND THE SILENCE GOES ON AND ON AND ON.

>> I SHOULD NOTE THAT THE ISRAELI POLICE HAVE SAID THEY HAVE OPENED AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE ATTACK ON OUR TEAM.

THEY SAY THEY TAKE SUCH MATTERS EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY, BUT WE SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK HAVE ACTED WITH A PATTERN OF IMPUNITY FOR YEARS NOW, AND THAT IS PART OF THE CONCERN THAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM SO MANY PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK.

IN FACT, JUST YESTERDAY, WE SAW DOZENS OF VEHICLES TORCHED BY ISRAELI SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK TOWN OF BARKING.

AS THESE ATTACKS CONTINUE, THE FAITH OF PALESTINIANS THERE, INVESTIGATIONS INTO SETTLER VIOLENCE BY THE ISRAELIS WILL ACTUALLY LEAD TO ANYTHING IS EXTREMELY LOW.

>> MEANTIME, JEREMY, WE HEAR FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT HE STILL HOLD OUT HOPE THAT A CEASE-FIRE OR RESOLUTION TO THE WAR IN GAZA COULD COME SOON.

WE HEARD THE SAME FROM STEVE WHAT COUGH, SUGGESTING THAT THEY COULD COME LAST WEEK, WHEN PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WAS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE DO NEGOTIATIONS STAND AT THIS POINT?

>> THESE TWO SIDES OF BEEN OF THE LAST TWO WEEKS.

BUT, FOR NOW, THERE IS STILL DISAGREEMENT OVER --HOLDING UP THE PROSPECTS OF AN AGREEMENT, AND THAT IS THE WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI TROOPS FROM PORTIONS OF THE GAZA STRIP.

THE MAJOR ISSUE THAT HAS SURFACED HAS BEEN OVER THE CORRIDOR THAT CELEBRATES THE SOUTHERN CITY OF RAFAH FROM THE REST OF THE GAZA STRIP.

IT SEEMS THAT THE ISRAELIS ARE RETICENT TO WITHDRAW FROM THAT CORRIDOR OVER THE COURSE OF THE 60 DAY CEASE-FIRE AND WANT TO MAINTAIN, AT LEAST, A PARTIAL FOOTHOLD THERE.

WE HEARD TODAY FROM THE QATAR MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS SPOKESMAN, WHO STRESSED THAT HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT TALKS HAVE COLLAPSED ALTOGETHER, THAT NEGOTIATIONS ARE CONTINUING, BUT HE COULD NOT SAY EXACTLY WHEN A DEAL WOULD HAPPEN.

HE SAID, WE CANNOT SAY WHETHER AN AGREEMENT WILL BE REACHED TOMORROW OR WHETHER NEGOTIATIONS WILL COLLAPSE TOMORROW.

THAT IS THE MARGIN OF ERROR THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE, AND OF COURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES OF CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS FAILING ARE ENORMOUS.

THERE ARE STILL 20 LIVING ISRAELI HOSTAGES BEING HELD IN GAZA, WHOSE LIVES ARE IN DANGER EVERY SINGLE DAY, AND OF COURSE, WE HAVE SEEN FOR PALESTINIANS THAT ARE LIVING THERE, THAT THE HUMANITARIAN CONDITIONS HAVE NOT IMPROVED.

THEY ARE CONTINUING TO WORSEN, ESPECIALLY, IN TERMS OF HUNGER, ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE, AND OF COURSE, THE BOMBS THAT ARE CONTINUING TO FOLLOW.

BIANNA.

>> THAT SHORT-TERM, LONGER- TERM, THE IMPACT OF THIS WAR ON ANY NORMALIZATION WITH MORE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, ESPECIALLY, SAUDI ARABIA, ALL DEPEND ON THIS WERE COMING TO AN END, AS WELL.

JEREMY DIAMOND.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPORTING.

>>> MEANWHILE, ISRAEL IS ALSO OPERATING IN SOUTHERN SYRIA, LAUNCHING STRIKES AGAINST SILER IN -- SYRIAN FORCES AS IT VOWS TO PROTECT THE DRUZE COMMUNITY.

THE CITY OF SUWAYDA, WERE SECTARIAN VIOLENCE IS FLARING PEOPLE KILLED AFTER CLASHES, ACCORDING TO LOCAL MEDIA COULD THIS PUTS THE NEW SYRIAN LEADER AND HIS GOVERNMENT BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT, JUST TWO WEEKS AFTER THE UNITED STATES FORMALLY LIFTED SANCTIONS ON THE COUNTRY.

DAREEN KHALIFA IS A SENIOR ADVISER AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP AND SHE JOINS US NOW FROM CAIRO IN EGYPT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE SHOULD NOTE THIS VIOLENCE ERUPTED IN SUWAYDA.

OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS, IT HAS KILLED DOZENS OF PEOPLE.

THERE IS A FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE THAT HAS JUST BEEN ANNOUNCED.

THE CLASH -- CLASHES, FUNDAMENTALLY, ARE NOT SECTARIAN IN NATURE.

IF THIS LOOKS AND SOUNDS FAMILIAR, WE SAW SIMILAR SECTARIAN CLASHES BACK IN MARCH, AND THAT WAS WHEN HUNDREDS OF SYRIANS WERE KILLED.

THIS CASE INVOLVES DRUZE AND BEDOUINS IN SYRIA.

TALK TO US ABOUT THE DYNAMIC AT >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME PICK THERE IS, ABSOLUTELY, A SECTARIAN ANGLE TO THIS.

THE DYNAMIC IN SYRIA IS VERY PREVALENT.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT BOTH BASHAR AND HOFFA HAVE ENTRENCHED IN THE SOCIETY OVER 50 YEARS OF THEIR RULING.

HOWEVER, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOT LOOK AT ALL OF THESE BREAKDOWNS IN SECURITY HAPPENING ACROSS SYRIA, ONLY FROM A SECTARIAN LENS, IS IN ESSENCE, IT'S A STRUGGLE BETWEEN A CENTRAL GOVERNMENT TRYING TO ASSERT ITS CONTROL, AND TRYING TO ASSERT ITS DOMINANCE AND MONOPOLY OVER USE OF FORCE, AND THEN ALL THESE OTHER ARMED GROUPS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHO ARE TRYING TO PRESERVE A LEVEL OF AUTONOMY THAT ALLOWS THEM TO MAINTAIN THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES AND THEIR CIVIL ADMINISTRATION, AS WELL.

THAT APPLIES TO THE DRUZE COMMUNITY.

APPLIES TO THE KURDISH COMMUNITY.

IT APPLIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT IS A STRUGGLE WE HAVE SEEN MONTHS.

AND, I THINK IT WILL CONTINUE TO OCCUR, UNLESS AND UNTIL THERE ARE POLITICAL AGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THESE COMMUNITIES THAT ADDRESSES THE CONCERNS.

AGAIN, SOME OF THESE CONCERNS ARE SECTARIAN BY NATURE.

THE DRUZE COMMUNITY, THE LOCAL POPULATION IS CONCERNED, AND IT DOES NOT HELP THAT FACTIONS ASSOCIATED TO THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT ARE CHANTING THE SECTARIAN SLOGANS, OR MISBEHAVING, COMMITTING CRIMES AGAINST CIVILIANS.

IT DOES REALLY GIVE THE IMPRESSION WITHIN THESE COMMUNITIES THAT THE GOVERNMENT EITHER IS UNABLE OR UNWILLING TO CONTROL THE FACTIONS THAT ARE OPERATING UNDER ITS UMBRELLA.

>> THAT RAISES THE QUESTION OF, HOW MUCH CONTROL AHMED AL- SHARAA'S GOVERNMENT HAS, AT THIS POINT, OVER THE COUNTRY.

>> IT'S MORE CONTROLLED THAN I THOUGHT HE WOULD.

IT'S LESS CONTROLLED THAN WHAT THE SYRIANS EXPECTED TO ACHIEVE.

PERSPECTIVE.

IT HAS ONLY BEEN SEVEN MONTHS SINCE THE FALL OF ASAD.

SINCE THEN, THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN OPERATING ON 1 MILLION FRONTS.

THEY HAVE BEEN FOCUSING, PRIMARILY, ON THEIR FOREIGN RELATIONS IN ORDER TO REMOVE U.S. AND EUROPEAN SANCTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN SUFFOCATING THE COUNTRY, ECONOMICALLY.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A PRIORITY.

THE SECOND PRIORITY HAS BEEN TRYING TO MERGE ALL THE ARMED GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN OPERATING IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF SYRIA UNDER THE COMMAND AND CONTROL.

NOW, THEY HAVE DONE A LOT OF PROGRESS, IN TERMS OF MERGING SUNNI FACTIONS.

SPECIFICALLY, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BACKED BY TURKEY OR OPERATING VERY CLOSELY TO THE GROUP THAT AHMED AL-SHARAA HAD PRESIDED OVER, PRIOR TO BECOMING THE SYRIAN PRESIDENT.

NOW, THAT EXCLUDES A CHUNK OF THE COUNTRY THAT ARE UNDER THE KURDISH FORCES, THAT HAVE BEEN USED BY THE --BACKED BY THE U.S.

COALITION.

AS WELL, OBVIOUSLY, AS FORMER REGIME RUMINANTS WHO STILL HAVE SOME PRESENCE IN THE WESTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY.

>> THE TAKEOVER AND OVERTHROWING OF BASHAR AL- ASSAD'S GOVERNMENT, WHICH REALLY SURPRISED THE WORLD, WHICH THE RATE AND SPEED, AT WHICH IT HAPPENED.

IT HAPPENED AT THE TAIL END OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

WE KNOW AT THE TIME, THE TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENT PROMISED TO FORM A NEW GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD INCLUDE MUCH OF THE MINORITY GROUPS THERE, AND ADDRESSING THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE SECTORAL DIVIDE IN THE COUNTRY.

THE 23 NEW MEMBER GOVERNMENT IN SYRIA THAT WAS ANNOUNCED JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, THOUGH, ONLY INCLUDES ONE DRUZE MEMBER.

HOW MUCH CONCERN, AND HOW MUCH VALID CONCERN IS THERE, THAT THAT INITIAL PLEDGE IS NOT BEING LIVED UP TO?

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK FROM THE GOVERNMENT ABOUT INCLUSIVITY, ABOUT DIVERSITY, ABOUT BEING A GOVERNMENT FOR ALL SYRIANS.

HOWEVER, VERY LITTLE HAS BEEN REFLECTED, NOT ONLY IN THE COMPOSITION OF THE GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO IN THE COMPOSITION OF THE MILITARY AND THE SECURITY FORCES.

AND, ALSO, IN THE IMPLEMENTATION OF CERTAIN POLICIES, AND THE CONSTITUTIONAL DECLARATION THAT THEY ANNOUNCED A FEW MONTHS BACK.

THAT IS QUITE CONCERNING, NOT JUST TO MINORITY GROUPS, BUT ALSO TO SECULAR AND LIBERAL SYRIANS, WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE A DIVERSE COUNTRY AND A NEW ERA IN THE COUNTRY.

YES, THERE IS ONE DRUZE MEMBER, AND I THINK THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

THEY KIND OF MADE IT OUT TO BE A CODA SYSTEM, IN WHICH THERE IS ONE WOMAN, ONE DRUZE, ONE KURD, AND PEOPLE ARE ASKING THE QUESTION --DO THESE PEOPLE, ACTUALLY HAVE -- DO THEY HAVE DECISION-MAKING ARE THEY ABLE TO TAKE ACTUAL DECISIONS THAT ARE CONSEQUENTIAL?

I THINK THESE QUESTIONS ARE VERY VALID, AND THE GOVERNMENT STILL HAS A LOT TO DO TO PROJECT A LEVEL OF INCLUSIVITY AND DIVERSITY THAT CAN GIVE CONFIDENCE TO MILLIONS OF SYRIANS.

>> LOOKING BACK, IT MAY HAVE BEEN TOO AMBITIOUS OF A GOAL, AND IT CAME AT A TIME WHEN NOT ONLY, THEN AL-SHARAA COME TO POWER IN DEFEATING A SOD, BUT THERE WERE STILL SANCTIONS IN PLACE FROM THE UNITED STATES, AND ONE OF THE TOP DEMANDS WAS HIS INCLUSIVITY FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

WE ARE NOT NECESSARILY HEARING THE SAME DEMANDS AND FOCUS ON DEMANDS FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHO WE SHOULD NOTE, A FEW WEEKS AGO, LIFTED THOSE SANCTIONS ON AL-SHARAA AND HIS GOVERNMENT.

LET ME BRING UP ISRAEL'S ROLE, BECAUSE ISRAEL LAUNCHED AIR STRIKES ON SUWAYDA AFTER THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT ENTERED THIS DRUZE CITY, AND THE ISRAELI PROJECT --PROTECT THE DRUZE.

ISRAEL IS COMMITTED TO PREVENTING HARM BEING INFLICTED ON THE DRUZE IN SYRIA, OWING TO THE DEEP COVENANT OF BLOOD WITH OUR CITIZENS IN ISRAEL, AND THEIR HISTORICAL AND FAMILIAL LINK TO THE DRUZE IN SYRIA.

WE ARE ACTING TO PREVENT THE SYRIAN REGIME FROM HARMING THEM, AND TO ENACT THE DEMILITARIZATION ADJACENT TO THE BORDER WITH SYRIA.

WHAT IS THE VIEW IN SYRIA ABOUT HOW FAR ISRAEL WILL GO IN ITS DEFENSE OF THE DRUZE?

>> DAMASCUS IS INCREDIBLY CONCERNED ABOUT ISRAELI POLICY AND THOSE REACTIONS IN SYRIA.

THEY HAVE BEEN VERY CONCERNED SINCE DAY ONE OF THE TRANSITION, AND THEY HAVE VALID REASONS.

JUST IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF ASSAD FALLING, ISRAEL WENT QUICKLY AND ALMOST OBLITERATED SERIOUS MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE.

THEY CAPTURED THE TERRITORY WEST OF THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.

INFRASTRUCTURE OF THEIR OWN IN THESE AREAS.

INITIALLY, THEY SAID THAT THE MILITARY CAMPAIGN IS TEMPORARY, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT -- FAST FORWARD SEVEN MONTHS, IT IS STILL ONGOING.

THEY HAVE BEEN TARGETING ASSETS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THEY, IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, HIT VERY CLOSE TO THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.

IN THEIR RHETORIC, THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT PROTECTING JEWS, BUT THEY ALSO TALKED ABOUT PROTECTING THE KURDS.

THE DRUZE ARE ESTABLISHED IN SYRIA AND LEBANON, ALSO IN ISRAEL.

THEY ARE QUITE AN INFLUENTIAL POSITION IN ISRAEL.

WHEN THEY ESCALATE, RHETORICALLY, AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT AND IN FAVOR OF THE TRAN20 FIVE COMMUNITY, THAT IS SIGNALING INTERNALLY TO THE DRUZE IN ISRAEL, THAT THEY ARE PROTECTING THEM IN SYRIA.

THEY ARE SENDING MESSAGES, TRYING TO -- THEY ARE SIGNALING INTERNALLY, BUT THEY ARE ALSO SIGNALING TO DAMASCUS TO TRY TO SLOW DOWN THEIR MILITARY PROGRESS IN RECAPTURING THE AREA.

IF YOU ASK ME, I DON'T THINK THEY ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO STOP THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT FROM CAPTURING REMAINING PARTS OF SYRIA.

I THINK IT'S A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE THAT HAPPENS.

BUT, THEY ARE SLOWING IT DOWN.

THEY ARE RAISING THE COST OF THAT FOR THEM.

AGAIN, IT'S VERY WORRYING FOR DAMASCUS.

ESPECIALLY, THAT THE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS BEEN QUITE DE- ESCALATE TORI IN THEIR MESSAGING AND TONE TOWARDS ISRAEL.

THEY HAVE SIGNALED PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY FOR A LONG TIME THAT THEY ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF PICKING A FIGHT WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS.

SPECIFICALLY, ISRAEL.

THEY KNOW THAT THE BALANCE OF POWER IS TILTED AGAINST THEM.

ON THE CONTRARY, THEY HAVE FLIRTED WITH THE IDEA OF A POTENTIAL NORMALIZATION AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL.

THEY ARE MOVING IN A VERY DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAN WHAT TEL AVIV IS AT THE MOMENT.

>> THIS IS SOMETHING, THIS NORMALIZATION IDEA BETWEEN SYRIA AND ISRAEL IS SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY BEING PUSHED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION RIGHT NOW, AS WELL.

I WISH I COULD KEEP SPEAKING WITH YOU LONGER, BECAUSE YOU HAVE, ACTUALLY, SPOKEN AND INTERVIEWED AL-SHARAA A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, SO I'M SO CURIOUS TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON HIS EVOLUTION, WHICH JUST MEANS WE WILL HAVE TO HAVE YOU BACK ON THE SHOW VERY SOON TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION.

DAREEN KHALIFA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

STORM AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT SAYS IT BELIEVES WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ARE CONTINUING TO TAKE PLACE IN SUDAN'S WESTERN DARFUR REGION.

A CIVIL WAR HAS BEEN RAGING FOR MORE THAN TWO YEARS NOW.

THE DEPUTY PROSECUTOR HAS TOLD THE UNITED NATIONS THAT THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS HAS REACHED AN INTOLERABLE STATE AND WARNED THAT THINGS CAN STILL GET WORSE.

WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR THIS TO END, AND FOR ANY JUSTICE TO BE SERVED?

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO WAS THE ICCS FIRST CHIEF PROSECUTOR, WHO OVERSAW PREVIOUS INVESTIGATIONS INTO WAR CRIMES IN DARFUR.

AND, KHALID MUSTAFA MEDANI IS CHAIR OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES PROGRAM AT McGILL UNIVERSITY.

LUIS, LET ME START WITH YOU, BECAUSE THE ICC SAYS IT HAS REASONABLE GROUNDS TO BELIEVE THAT WAR CRIMES HAVE BEEN COMMITTED, AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ARE UNDERWAY NOW IN DARFUR.

THEY HAVEN'T SAID EXACTLY WHO IS COMMITTING THESE CRIMES.

THE UNITED STATES AND SEVERAL HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS HAVE MADE THE RSS AS RESPONSIBLE FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, MASCULINE, WAR CRIMES, ET CETERA.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE ICC HAS YET TO PUT A NAME ON THESE CHARGES AND ALLEGATIONS?

>> THE STORY IS THAT THE CONFLICT IN DARFUR STARTED MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO, AND THAT'S WHY -- THE GOOD PART OF THE STORY WAS, IN THOSE DAYS, ALL ACCOUNTS OF THE WAR, INCLUDING RUSSIA AND THE U.S., AGREED THERE SHOULD BE AN INVESTIGATION.

20 YEARS LATER, -- THAT'S WHY, DARFUR IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO FIND A SOLUTION.

>> AND, YOU LOOK AT THE EVIDENTIARY EVIDENCE THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN LAID OUT, AND AS YOU SAID, THIS HAS BEEN, SADLY, ONGOING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ENOUGH OF A CASE NOT TO MAKE INDICTMENTS AGAINST OUR SF LEADERS?

>> THE CHIEF PROSECUTOR, PREVIOUSLY, BOTH SAY THEY HAVE ONGOING INVESTIGATIONS.

THE PROBLEM IS --LOOK, IN MY TIME, WE INDICTED ONE LEADER, WHO TODAY IS IN TRIAL.

AND, HE WILL REMOVE IT, BUT THE CRIMES ARE GOING TO CONTINUE.

THE PROBLEM IS, CAN DARFUR BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE WORLD TO FIND NEW SOLUTIONS?

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SYRIA, IT IS THE SAME.

WE ARE FAILING.

MAKING PEACE IS LIKE COOKING.

WE NEED TO COMBINE THE ELEMENTS, AND WE ARE NOT DOING THAT.

YOU NEED TO COMBINE JUSTICE, POLITICAL EFFORT, AND WE ARE NOT DOING THAT.

THAT'S WHY I MEAN IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO FIND THE SOLUTIONS.

A SOLUTION FOR THE WORLD, NOT JUST FOR DARFUR.

>> WE ARE SEEING THE PRICE OF THOSE FAILURES.

LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND, YOU, YOURSELF, DESCRIBED THIS AS WORSE THAN IT WAS IN THE 2000'S.

HARD TO IMAGINE ANYTHING WORSE, BUT GIVEN SOME OF THE TESTIMONIES WE HAVE HEARD FROM THOSE, WHO HAVE ENDURED MASS RAPES, AND WITNESS TO MASS KILLING.

TELL US WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE NOW.

>> WHAT I'M HEARING IS, EXACTLY AND UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT THE DEPUTY PROSECUTOR OF THE ICC HAS DOCUMENTED IN LENGTH.

IT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR 27 MONTHS.

IT IS A DEVASTATING --AS SHE PUT IT, IT'S DIFFICULT TO FIND THE WORDS TO EXPRESS THE DEPTH OF SUFFERING.

I REALLY WANT TO HIGHLIGHT THAT.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OVER -- JUST A LITTLE BIT OVER TWO YEARS.

13 PEOPLE INTERNALLY DISPLACED, MILLIONS, WHO ARE REFUGEE.

THE ATTACK AGAINST CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, COMPLETELY DECIMATED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING HOSPITALS.

80% OF THE HOSPITALS, DESTROYED.

OF COURSE, THEY ARE TARGETING ETHNIC KILLINGS OF GROUPS IN DARFUR.

AFRICANIZED ETHNIC GROUPS, SO TO SPEAK.

THERE IS A LITANY OF HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, IN ADDITION TO VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

THIS IS WHY THE PROSECUTOR HAS ITEMIZED IT.

I AM HEARING, VERY MUCH, THE SAME THING.

DETAIL, I'M ALSO FOLLOWING SOCIAL MEDIA, WHERE YOU SEE, UNFORTUNATELY, BOTH SIDES.

ARMED FORCES AND THEIR ALLIED MILITIAS, POSTING SOCIAL MEDIA, SHOWING, ACTUALLY, A WIDE RANGE OF HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, INCLUDING EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS, TORTURE, ALL OF THE KINDS OF CRIMES THAT ABSOLUTELY FALL UNDER CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND CRIMES OF WAR.

I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE KIND OF EXPANSION OF THE USE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AS A WEAPON OF WAR IS JUST ANOTHER KIND OF INDICATION THAT THIS REPORT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

THE QUESTION BECOMES, HOW WILL IT BE IMPLEMENT IT?

WILL THE SECURITY COUNCIL, INCLUDING THOSE WHO HAVE VETO, INCLUDING COUNTRIES WHO HAVE VETOED OTHER RESOLUTIONS ON SEDAN --I AM HERE SPEAKING DIRECTLY ABOUT RUSSIA AS AN EXAMPLE.

WILL THERE BE A CONSENSUS AROUND DOING SOMETHING?

WE DO KNOW THAT IN JANUARY, THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, PRIOR TO TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION TAKING OVER, THE RSF WAS SANCTIONED BY ANTONY BLINKEN AND FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN, FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THAT IS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS, AND THERE HAS BEEN SANCTIONED --I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR, AGAINST THE LEADER OF THE SUDAN ARMED FORCES.

BOTH PARTIES TO THIS WORK, BOTH PROTAGONISTS, HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T SEE, NECESSARILY, OTHER ARMED CONFLICTS.

THOSE SITES HERE MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>> WHAT IS THE BEST WAY OF HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE?

YOU ARE RIGHT TO NOTE THAT THE RSF IS BEING PAINTED BY -- AS THE MAIN AGGRESSOR FOR THE SUDANESE ARMY HAS ALSO BEEN ACCUSED OF WAR CRIMES.

HOW TO GO ABOUT BRINGING JUSTICE TO BOTH SIDES?

>> JUSTICE FOR BOTH SIDES IS EXACTLY THE INTERNATIONAL MANDATE.

JUSTICE SHOULD BE PARTIAL.

20 YEARS AGO, THE WAR WAS COMMITTED, TO CARRY OUT GENOCIDE.

IN 2025, GENOCIDE IS A MIDDLE STRATEGY.

IT'S WORSE.

IT'S A MIDDLE STRATEGY ACCEPTED BY INTERNATIONAL LEADERS.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM UP TODAY.

IT'S NOT JUST DARFUR.

DARFUR IS ONE OF THE BRUTAL EXAMPLES, BUT IT'S HAPPENING EVERYWHERE.

>> RIGHT.

WHAT IS ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS YOU THINK, OBVIOUSLY, TO ADDRESS THE FACT THAT JUSTICE DOES NEED TO BE SERVED ON ALL SIDES?

>> THERE ARE TWO THINGS.

ONE OF THEM IS, VERY MUCH, AS I SAID BEFORE, THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE SANCTIONS ALREADY IN PLACE, INCLUDING THE ARMS EMBARGO THAT WAS IMPLEMENTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS IN 2004.

HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT THAT NEEDS TO BE, NOT ONLY IMPLEMENTED AND FOLLOWED, BUT ALSO EXPANDED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, BECAUSE THIS WAR IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE EARLIER ONE IN DARFUR, IN THE SENSE THAT IT HAS REACHED THE ENTIRE COMPANY.

THERE IS NO PROVIDENCE, NO STATE IN SUDAN THAT IS NOT SUFFERING AS A RESULT OF THIS WAR.

THAT IS NUMBER ONE.

THE SECOND ISSUE IS TO ALSO EXPAND TARGETED SANCTIONS.

IT TOOK A VERY LONG TIME TO TARGET THE LEADER OF THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES, BUT THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THAT INCLUDES, NOT ONLY, SANCTIONING HIM FROM TRAVELING, BUT ALSO CRUCIALLY, ACTUALLY, FREEZING ASSETS THAT HAVE SUPPORTED THE RECRUITMENT OF MILITIAS, SUCH AS THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES.

THAT IS NUMBER ONE.

THE OTHER THING IS, THERE IS A WIDE CONSENSUS NOW THAT IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A WAR WHERE NO SIDE HAS WON ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

AND, THIS IS THE RESULT OF THE FACT THAT NEITHER PARTY HAS REALLY WIDESCALE LEGITIMACY AMONG THE POPULATION.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THAT MEANS IN THE LANGUAGE THAT WE USE IN THE ACADEMY, THAT WE ARE NOW AT THE POINT OF A MUTUALLY HURTING STALEMATE.

THAT MEANS THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION.

IN ADDITION TO NUMBER ONE, IMPOSING OR IMPLEMENTING THE SANCTIONS, EXPANDING THE EMBARGO, AND ALSO TARGETING -- IMPOSING THESE TARGETED SANCTIONS, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO RE-ENERGIZE THE KIND OF POLITICAL NEGOTIATIONS THAT THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION REALLY EMBARKED UPON TO BRING OTHER ACTORS INVOLVED IN THE CONFLICT, TO TRY TO ADJUDICATE SOME KIND OF --NUMBER ONE, CEASE-FIRE, GUARANTEE HUMANITARIAN ACCESS, AND FINALLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE ONLY WAY TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE CRIMES, IS TO ENSURE THE TRANSITION TO A CIVILIAN DEMOCRACY, IS WHAT MOST SUDANESE HAVE FOUGHT FOR FOR DECADES.

IF YOU DON'T MIND ME SAYING, WE HAVE THE DEBBIE TERRY SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO MET WITH THE QUAD.

THE COUNTRIES MOST INVOLVED IN THIS CONFLICT.

CERTAINLY, IMPORTANTLY INVOLVED.

OF COURSE, THE UNITED STATES, SAUDI ARABIA, THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, AND EGYPT.

THAT'S A STARTING POINT.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE NOT TO SUBCONTRACT THIS CONTRACT TO THE GULF COUNTRIES, WHICH THEY HAVE DONE, HISTORICALLY BIT WHAT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT, THAT THESE EXTERNAL ACTORS THAT ARE SO INVOLVED, REALLY, ARE BROUGHT TOGETHER IN A WAY THAT AS A DEPUTY SECRETARY PUT IT TO THEM, TO DEFINE THEIR INTERESTS IN SUDAN, AND HOW THAT CAN BE RECONCILED WITH A SUSTAINABLE PEACE IN THE COUNTRY.

THIS IS THE FIRST STEP, BUT I WOULD EMPHASIZE THAT HAS TO BE CONTINUED AND IT MUST BE DONE UNDER AMERICAN LEADERSHIP, BECAUSE THERE ARE CONTESTED INTERESTS IN THE REGION, AMONG A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REGIONAL ACTORS, THAT HAVE NOT BEEN -- THE CAUSE OF THIS WORK, OBVIOUSLY, BUT THEY HAVE SUSTAINED IT AND OBSTRUCTED ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> LUIS, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT, THAT THE U.S. SHOULD TAKE A MORE ACTIVE ROLE HERE?

AND, NOT HAVE THIS BE SOMETHING THAT GULF STATES HAVE TAKEN THE LEAD ON?

UNITED STATES SHOULD INVEST MORE TIME IN INVESTING, AND BRINGING TO AN END, COUNTRIES THAT HAVE LEVERAGE, LIKE THE UNITED STATES.

I SHOULD MENTION RUSSIA.

RUSSIA, ITSELF, IS NOW CONDUCTING ITS OWN ILLEGAL WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> THE PROBLEM IS, THE U.S. HAS NO IDEA HOW TO MANAGE ITS PROBLEMS.

NOT JUST THE ONE PRECEDENT -- PRESIDENT.

PRESIDENT OBAMA DECIDED TO IGNORE THE GENOCIDE TO MAKE A DEAL WITH PRESIDENT BASHIR ABOUT THE INDEPENDENT SUDAN, AND SUPPORT FOR THE WAR ON TERROR.

IT'S NOT JUST PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THE U.S., IN GENERAL TERMS -- IT IS FAILING BRUTALLY.

QATAR IS INVOLVED ON ONE SIDE.

EVERYONE IS INVOLVED ON DIFFERENT SIDES.

THESE ARE THREE ALLIES OF THE THE U.S. HAS NO ABILITY TO COMBINE THEM.

ALL PARTS OF THE REGION, ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO LEAD.

THAT'S WHY, WHAT IS FAILING TODAY --WE NEED TO FIND NEW SOLUTIONS.

WE NEED TO COOK DIFFERENTLY, BECAUSE IT'S NOT WORKING.

>> RIGHT, AND IN YOUR TENURE AT THE ICC, YOU ACCUSED BASHAR OF GENOCIDE.

HE WAS INDICTED IN 2009 ON MULTIPLE COUNTS, LINKING TO ATROCITIES COMMITTED DURING THE DARFUR CONFLICT.

HE EVADED ARREST FOR OVER A DECADE, WAS EVEN ABLE TO TRAVEL INTERNATIONALLY, AND THERE IS CONCERN BECAUSE HE THE SAME FALLOUT HERE.

YOU LAID OUT THE OBSTACLES YOU HAVE ENDURED.

SADLY, IT SOUNDS LIKE THE SAME OBSTACLES ARE STILL IN PLACE TODAY.

>> WELL, THAT'S MY POINT.

MAKING PEACE IS LIKE COOKING.

YOU HAVE TO COMBINE THE ELEMENTS.

JUSTICE WAS A NEW ELEMENT ON DARFUR.

INDICTED PEOPLE.

BUT, THE POLITICAL LEADERS HAVE TO INCLUDE THIS IN THE COOKING.

OKAY, WE HAVE THIS WARRANTS.

WE CAN SUPPORT BASHIR TO IGNORE THE WARRANT.

SUDDENLY, HE IS FOLLOWING ALL THE U.S.

INTERESTS.

IN THOSE DAYS, SOUTH SUDAN INDEPENDENCE, AND SUPPORT FOR THE WAR ON TERROR.

THAT'S WHY THE COOKING WAS WRONG.

IT IS STILL HAPPENING.

I KNOW THESE CORE DOORS IN THE U.S.

THEY ARE NOT PROPOSING TO LEADERS HOW TO MANAGE THESE PROBLEMS.

>> THE CURRENT PROSECUTOR, KAREEM KOHN, OVER HIS INVESTIGATION AND PROSECUTION, AND ARREST WARRANTS FOR BOTH THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER IN ISRAEL.

HOW DOES THAT IMPACT, IF AT ALL, ANY LEVERAGE AND POWER THAT THE ICC HAS RIGHT NOW IN DARFUR?

OR, ARE THESE COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUES?

>> IT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

TRUMP, AS OBAMA, HAD A PRAGMATIC POSITION.

IF YOU READ THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL DEBATE, THE U.S. DID NOT OPPOSE --IN DARFUR.

OBAMA CALLED IT A PRAGMATIC APPROACH.

THE U.S.

SUPPORTS THE CASES THEY LIKE, AND THEY DON'T SUPPORT THE CASES THEY DON'T LIKE.

THE U.S.

SUPPORTS THE CASE AGAINST THOMAS.

THE U.S.

SUPPORTS THE CASE AGAINST PUTIN.

THE U.S. OPPOSED THE PROSECUTOR IN THE NETANYAHU CASE.

THAT A LA CARTE MENU IS NOT WORKING.

IS THIS ACCEPTABLE?

GENOCIDE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

GENOCIDE IS NOT A MILITARY STRATEGY.

GENOCIDE IS A BRUTAL PRIME.

>> ALL YOU --AS YOU SAID, AN A LA CARTE MENU.

SADLY, IT IS THE CITIZENS OF ALL THESE COUNTRIES -- >> YOU SHOW THAT PICTURE.

A FORMER AL QAEDA LEADER.

THE U.S.

SUPPORTED HIM TO REMOVE ASSAD.

IMAGINE HOW DIFFICULT IT IS FOR THE U.S.

DIFFERENT AGENDAS.

IMPOSSIBLE.

>> WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO WORK THIS OUT.

IT IS THE WAY THAT PEOPLE AND HUMANITY, AND ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE ICC, HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO PROTECT THE LIVES OF THE INNOCENT PEOPLE IN ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES.

>> IT'S WRONG.

THIS IS GENOCIDE.

THE STATES HAVE TO IMPLEMENT DECISIONS.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE COURT.

THE PROBLEM IS THE THEORY IN THE U.S.

THE SEVERITY IN -- THEORY IN THE BEST UNIVERSITIES.

THAT THEORY HAS ENDED.

IT'S NOT WORKING.

>> LUIS MORENO OCAMPO AND KHALID MUSTAFA MEDANI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>>> 11.8 MILLION.

THAT'S HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE AT RISK OF LOSING THEIR VITAL HEALTH INSURANCE BECAUSE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NEW DOMESTIC POLICY LAW.

WHILE HE HAS INSISTED THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO CAUSE DEATH, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY, LAWRENCE SUMMERS, ARGUES THAT IT'S A CRUEL LAW THAT PUSHES ASIDE SIMPLE MATTERS OF DECENCY, AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN.

>> LAWRENCE SUMMERS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> YOU WROTE LAST WEEK, AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNED WHAT HE CALLED THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL ON JULY 4th -- YOU SAID, I DON'T REMEMBER ANY PAST JULY 4th, BEING SO ASHAMED OF ANY PAST ACTION MY COUNTRY HAD TAKEN PIT THAT WAS IN A NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

THING IN ITS BRUTALITY.

WE'VE HAD BUDGETS ALL THE TIME.

WE'VE HAD CHANGES IN POLICY.

THE UNITED STATES HAS NEVER CUT BACK ITS SOCIAL SAFETY NET.

NEARLY, AS MUCH, IN ANY ACTION.

NOT IN RONALD REAGAN'S CUTS IN 1981.

NOT IN THE WELFARE REFORM BILL THAT WAS PASSED IN THE MID- 1990S.

NOT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE FINANCIAL CRISIS.

NEVER, HAVE WE HAD AS LARGE A CUTBACK IN THE SOCIAL SAFETY NET MEASURED RELATIVE TO THE SIZE OF THE ECONOMY, AS WE DID HERE.

AND, THE ACADEMIC EVIDENCE, THE STUDIES OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE ARE KICKED OFF OF MEDICAID IS VERY CLEAR.

THEY BECOME A BIT MORE LIKELY TO DIE, AND OVER 10 YEARS, THIS IS LIKELY TO KILL MORE THAN 100,000 PEOPLE.

THERE IS A KIND OF CASUAL BRUTALITY ABOUT THIS THAT IS NOT EVEN BEING WIDELY DISCUSSED, THAT IS JUST ON A DIFFERENT SCALE THAN ANYTHING OUR COUNTRY HAS DONE BEFORE, IN ALL THE VARIOUS BUDGETS WE HAVE HAD.

AND THEN, YOU ASK, WE ARE DOING THIS TO SAVE MONEY?

AND, FOR WHAT?

SO THAT PEOPLE, WHO CAN NOW TAX- EXEMPT, PAST $30 MILLION TO THE KIDS, WILL BE ABLE TO TAX-EXEMPT $32 MILLION TO THE KIDS?

SO THAT CORPORATIONS WILL BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO HAVE TAX RATES THAT ARE LOWER THAN THE ONES THEY ASKED FOR AT THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL TRUMP LEGISLATION?

I JUST THINK THIS IS OUR COUNTRY GETTING ITS VALUES ALTOGETHER WRONG.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THE BIG PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION.

THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS WE PUT IN THE COMMENTS, THAT EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO, WHETHER IT'S POLICED OF --POLICE PROTECTION, FIRE PROTECTION PIT SHOULD HEALTHCARE BE ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE TRY TO MAKE SURE IS MORE IN THE COMMONS, SO WE CAN PROTECT A SOCIETY THAT HAS DISPARITIES OF WEALTH, AND MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY CAN SURVIVE IN SUCH A PLACE?

>> A LOOK.

I AM A PROGRESSIVE.

I TEND TO THINK THE RIGHT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS, YES.

BUT, THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE DEBATING HERE.

WE ARE DEBATING WHETHER A PARENT, WHO IS TAKING CARE OF A CHILD, WHO WEIGHS 70 POUNDS AS AN ADULT, WHOSE BODY IS WRACKED BY CEREBRAL PALSY, IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO SO THEY CAN GO OUT AND EARN A LIVING TO SUPPORT THE FAMILY.

WE ARE DEBATING WHETHER PEOPLE, WHO ARE DISCHARGED FROM THE HOSPITAL HAVE A PLACE TO GO, WHEN THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES.

WE ARE DEBATING WHETHER AGED PEOPLE, WHO NEED DIALYSIS TO SURVIVE --THERE IS A WAY OF GETTING THEM TRANSPORTATION TO THE HOSPITAL.

WE CAN DEBATE THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE SHOULD PROVIDE FOR THE SAME MEDICAL CARE FOR EVERYBODY.

THAT IS A HARD AND COMPLICATED QUESTION.

I AM ON THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE OF IT.

BUT, THE MOST ELEMENTARY KINDS OF DECENCY --I'M SURE THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE, WHO ARE AGAINST THAT.

BUT, I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY IF THE QUESTION WERE PUT TO THEM, WOULDN'T WANT TO SEE THE KIND OF BRUTALITY THAT WE ARE ENGAGING IN.

AND, IT REFLECTS WHAT WE ARE SEEING TOO MUCH OF.

WE ARE SEEING IT IN THE TARIFFS.

WE ARE SEEING IT IN MANY POLICIES.

IT IS JUST A CASUAL, WHAT SOUNDS GOOD, WITHOUT REALLY MAKING AN EFFORT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND?

THAT IS HOW THE DOGE DESTROYED THE ABILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO COLLECT TAXES AND DISTRIBUTE EFFICIENTLY, SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS.

THAT IS HOW WE ARE SEEING DEPORTATIONS OF PEOPLE, WHO ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, AND HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG.

IT'S THE -- THIS ISN'T A MATTER OF --WE CAN DEBATE THE LONG-STANDING QUESTIONS BETWEEN PROGRESSIVES THAT IS NOT WHAT IS AT ISSUE WHEN I CRITICIZED THIS BILL.

WHAT IS AT ISSUE WHEN I CRITICIZE THIS BILL IS SIMPLE MATTERS OF DECENCY ABOUT US AS A SOCIETY.

>> WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS, IT'S A BASIC CRUELTY DRIVING THIS?

>> IT IS A BASIC COMBINATION OF CRUELTY AND INDIFFERENCE, COMBINED WITH A SINGLE-MINDED FOCUS ON WHAT SHOULD BE TERTIARY OBJECTIVES.

PROVIDING TAX BENEFITS TO PEOPLE, WHO ALREADY HAVE THE HIGHEST INCOMES AND THE GREATEST LEVELS OF WEALTH.

IT IS THE WRONG FIRST PRIORITIES, THE WRONG AND COMPLETE INDIFFERENCE, AND THEN, A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF GRATUITOUS CRUELTY.

>> YOU JUST SAID THAT THE MEDICAID CUTS WOULD CAUSE 100,000 DEATHS OVER THE NEXT DECADE, AND YOU SAID NOT LONG AGO ON A TV SHOW, THAT IS 2000 DAYS OF DEATH, LIKE WE HAVE SEEN IN TEXAS THIS WEEKEND.

YOU WERE REFERRING TO THE TEXAS FLOODS.

SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, SCOTT BESSENT, SAID YOUR COMMENTS TURN TO HUMAN TRAGEDY INTO A POLITICAL CUDGEL, DEEPLY OFFENSIVE, AND HE CALLED ON YOU TO APOLOGIZE.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> SECRETARY BESSENT CAN BE OFFENDED BY WHATEVER HE WANTS TO BE OFFENDED.

WHAT IS CALLOUS, WHAT IS A POLITICAL CUDGEL, IS THE POLICIES THAT HE AND HIS ADMINISTRATION ARE LEGISLATING.

THAT WILL, ACCORDING TO OBJECTIVE EXPERTS, IN BOTH PARTIES, KILL PEOPLE.

I DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR MAKING VIVID THAT LARGE A NUMBER BY POINTING OUT HOW IT DWARFS THE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE TRAGEDY THAT TOOK PLACE IN TEXAS.

I THINK SECRETARY BESSENT, RATHER THAN ATTACKING EX- OFFICIALS, WHO ARE USING THEIR FREE SPEECH RIGHTS TO MAKE COMMENTS, WOULD BE BETTER OFF ASKING THE QUESTION, WHETHER, PERHAPS, IT WAS SUCH A GREAT IDEA TO SLASH THE BUDGET OF THE WEATHER BUREAU.

WHETHER IT WAS SUCH A GREAT IDEA TO BE IN STRONG OPPOSITION TO FEMA, IN LIGHT OF WHAT HAPPENED.

I DON'T HAVE ANY BASIS FOR KNOWING.

I REALLY DON'T, BUT AFTER A TRAGEDY OF UNPRECEDENTED SCALE, THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF EFFORTS TO CUT THE PROTECTIVE MECHANISMS THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE THE QUESTION THAT A THOUGHTFUL, CONSCIENTIOUS GOVERNMENT WOULD ENGAGE IN.

>> WHEN YOU WERE TREASURY SECRETARY, DURING THE LAST YEARS OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, I THINK YOU ALL PRODUCED BALANCED BUDGETS.

COMPARE AND CONTRAST THE SITUATION THEN, WITH WHAT TRUMP IS FACING NOW.

>> WE TRIED TO ALWAYS BE VERY CAREFUL, TO RESPECT WHAT THE INDEPENDENT, NONPARTISAN PEOPLE AT THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE WERE DOING.

SOMETIMES, WE FOUND IT INCONVENIENT.

SOMETIMES, WE WISHED THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, BUT WE UNDERSTOOD THAT IF IT WAS GOING TO BE A PROCESS WITH INTEGRITY, THERE HAD TO BE AN UMPIRE, AND THE UMPIRES ABUSE HAD TO BE RESPECTED.

AS PART OF THE SAME KIND OF EXPERTISE, THAT HAS LED THEM TO STOP SUPPORTING VACCINATION OF PEOPLE, AND LED THE COUNTRY TO AN UNPRECEDENTEDLY HIGH LEVEL OF MEASLES, THEY ARE JUST ATTACKING ALL OF THOSE PROCEDURES, AND MAKING UP THEIR OWN RULES, AND THEIR OWN ACCOUNTING.

I THINK IT'S VERY UNLIKELY TO PRODUCE ANY KIND OF FAVORABLE OUTCOME ON THE BUDGET.

>> I REMEMBER BACK THEN, DID YOU ARGUE THAT DEFICIT REDUCTION WAS NOT A BIG PRIORITY?

NOW, ACCORDING TO THE CBO, $3.4 TRILLION OVER THE NEXT DECADE.

IS IT A REAL PROBLEM NOW?

>> LOOK, I DID ARGUE, IN AN ERA IN THE DECADE OF THE TEENS.

I WAS, FOR A TIME, UNCONCERNED ABOUT THE BUDGET DEFICIT, FOR TWO REASONS.

IT'S BECAUSE THE DEFICIT IS MUCH SMALLER THAN IT IS NOW, AND BECAUSE INTEREST RATES WERE MUCH LOWER THAN THEY ARE NOW.

IF YOU CAN BORROW, INEXPENSIVELY ENOUGH, YOU HAVE TO WORRY LESS ABOUT BORROWING.

I THINK THE APPROACH THESE GUYS ARE TAKING IS RECKLESS.

IT IS RECKLESS, BECAUSE WE ARE FACING UNPRECEDENTED DEGREES OF SECURITY THREAT, AND THERE IS A QUESTION ABOUT HOW LONG THE WORLD'S GREATEST DEBTOR CAN REMAIN THE WORLD'S GREATEST POWER.

IT IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE SELLING SO MUCH DEATH, THERE CAN, DAY WHEN MARKETS JUST DON'T WANT IT.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO ENGLAND, CATASTROPHICALLY, AND ENDED PRIME MINISTER TRUSS'S PRIME MINISTER SHIP.

THAT FINANCIAL --IT'S TAKING MORE RISK, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, WE DON'T HAVE A RECESSION.

WE DON'T HAVE A PANDEMIC.

WE HAVE ONGOING, BUT NOT A MAJOR, NEW, NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT.

AND SO, THIS IS THE TIME WHEN WE SHOULD BE REBUILDING.

THIS IS THE TIME WHEN WE SHOULD BE FILLING UP THE COFFERS, SO THAT WE WILL BE READY FOR THE NEXT EMERGENCY.

INSTEAD, WE ARE BORROWING LIKE WE'VE GOT AN EMERGENCY RIGHT NOW.

THAT RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHAT WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO WHEN THE EMERGENCY COMES.

THIS IS IRRESPONSIBILITY, IN ADDITION TO THE MORAL IRRESPONSIBILITY.

THIS IS FINANCIAL IRRESPONSIBILITY, IN TERMS OF MARKETS, AND IT IS PRUDENTIAL IRRESPONSIBILITY, IN TERMS OF FLEXIBILITY, THE LIKES OF WHICH, I HAVE NEVER SEEN.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN VERY CRITICAL, OF COURSE, ON THE TARIFFS.

ESPECIALLY, ON THE UP AND DOWN TARIFFS, OPPOSING AND TAKING IT BACK, AND PAUSING.

LEAVE ALL OF THAT ASIDE, IN TERMS OF HOW HE IS IMPLEMENTING IT.

YOUR PUSH FOR FREE TRADE AND GLOBALIZATION, REALLY DID HURT, SOME OF THE JOBS BASED IN AMERICA --DO YOU THINK YOU OVERDID THAT?

DO YOU THINK THERE MAY BE SOME ROOM FOR SOME TARIFFS?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOME THINGS FOR THE MANUFACTURING SECTOR.

I STRONGLY SUPPORTED THE CHIPS ACT, THAT SOUGHT TO REVITALIZE OUR SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY.

WE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE DONE THINGS LIKE THAT SOONER, FOR MANUFACTURING.

THAT WERE DONE TO SUPPORT CLEAN ENERGY MANUFACTURING, THOSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE SOONER.

YES.

I THINK THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE MOVED MORE QUICKLY TO DO, WITH RESPECT TO SUPPORTING INDUSTRY.

DO I THINK TARIFFS ARE THE RIGHT ANSWER?

ALMOST, UNIVERSALLY, NO.

IN MANY, MANY CASES, WALTER, THEY ARE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

THINK ABOUT STEEL TARIFFS.

60 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE WORK IN MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES THAT USE STEEL, AS WORK IN THE STEEL INDUSTRY.

WE ARE COSTING MORE JOBS BY RAISING INPUT COSTS THAN ANYTHING WE ARE SAVING IN THE STEEL INDUSTRY.

WE ARE NOW IN AN ELECTRIC ECONOMY, WHETHER IT'S DATA CENTERS, WHETHER IT'S ELECTRIC CARS, WHATEVER IT IS.

THE KEY TO FLOURISHING IN THAT IS TO BE ABLE TO MOVE THERE IS AN ELEMENT THAT DOES THAT.

IT'S COPPER.

AND, THE ADMINISTRATION IS TALKING ABOUT MASSIVELY RAISING THE PRICE OF COPPER.

THAT IS GOING TO DO MORE DAMAGE TO MANUFACTURING THAN ANY NUMBER OF JOBS THAT ARE GOING TO GET SAVED IN THE COPPER MINING INDUSTRY.

WE CREATED JOBS DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION FASTER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN CREATED BEFORE OR SINCE.

AND, A STRATEGY THAT RECOGNIZED THAT AN OPEN, GLOBAL ECONOMY, WOULD DO MUCH, MUCH MORE TO HELP YOU AS EXPORTING THAN ANY LOSSES SUFFERED ON THE IMPORT SIDE.

THAT WAS THE RIGHT STRATEGY.

AND SO, THIS IS A TERRIBLE STRATEGY --EVEN BEFORE, WHAT IS GOING TO COME, WHICH IS THAT THE OTHER COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO RETALIATE.

WE ARE LIKE A FOOTBALL TEAM THAT CAN'T RUN THE PLAY IN PRACTICE, WHEN THERE IS NO DEFENSE, WITHOUT IT BACKFIRING.

THESE ARE POLICIES THAT, EVEN BEFORE THE REST OF THE WORLD RESPONDS, ARE GOING TO MAKE US POORER.

IN TERMS OF, LESS INPUTS.

THE OTHER PART OF IT IS, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WORKERS, WALTER, IF YOU ASK PEOPLE RIGHT NOW, ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT WHETHER THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE A JOB?

THAT IS A MUCH SMALLER ISSUE FOR PEOPLE THAN THE COST OF LIVING.

AND, THESE TARIFFS, AT THE CURRENT LEVELS.

THE YALE BUDGET LAB SAYS THEY'RE GOING TO ADD $2800 TO THE AVERAGE FAMILY.

THERE HAVE BEEN HALF A DOZEN, CAREFUL, THOROUGH, STATISTICAL STUDIES OF THE MUCH SMALLER TARIFFS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IMPOSED DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

THEY ALL FOUND WHAT COMMON SENSE SUGGESTS, THAT THOSE TARIFFS ARE PASSED ON IN THE FORM OF HIGHER PRICES TO CONSUMERS.

AND SO, YEAH.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE I DON'T CARE ABOUT AMERICAN WORKERS, THAT I AM FOR SUPPORTING AN OPEN, GLOBAL ECONOMY.

IT'S BECAUSE I DO CARE ABOUT AMERICAN WORKERS, AND I WANT THEIR PAYCHECKS TO GO AS FAR AS THEY CAN, AND I WANTED TO HAVE MAXIMUM OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHAT AMERICA IS BEST AT.

NO FREE TRADER WOULD EVER HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THE ROLE OF AMERICAN WORKERS SHOULD BE TO ASSEMBLE SMALL TELEPHONES.

IN THE WAY THAT THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE, OF THE ADMINISTRATION, SUGGESTED WAS THE CENTRAL PART OF THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION'S ECONOMIC STRATEGY.

YES.

WE DO NEED TO BE PAYING ATTENTION TO MANUFACTURING, TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

BUT, NO, TARIFFS ARE NOT THE RIGHT WAY.

>> LARRY SUMMERS, THANK YOU AGAIN FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU >>> FINALLY, THEY ARE BACK.

ON EARTH, THAT IS.

EARLIER THIS MORNING, CREW OF FOUR ASTRONAUTS FLASHED DOWN AFTER COMPLETING A 20 DAY MISSION IN SPACE.

THIS WAS LED BY PEGGY WHITSON, WHO BEFORE RETIRING, WAS NASA'S FIRST CHIEF FEMALE ASTRONAUT.

SHE WAS SUPPORTED BY A TEAM FROM POLAND, HUNGARY, AND INDIA.

THEY EACH EMBARK ON THEIR COUNTRY'S FIRST INTERNATIONAL SPACE TRIP.

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