>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER BEAUTIFUL ARMADA FLOATING BEAUTIFULLY TOWARD IRAN RIGHT NOW.

>> TRUMP HANDS TEHRAN A CHOICE, MAKE A NUCLEAR DEAL OR FACE AN ATTACK FAR WORSE THAN THE LAST.

RETIRED VICE ADMIRAL KEVIN DONEGAN BREAKS DOWN AMERICA'S MILITARY OPTIONS.

>>> AND WEEKS AFTER A DEADLY CRACKDOWN ON CITIZENS HAS THE REGIME CROSSED THE POINT OF NO RETURN?

I ASK IRAN ANALYST KARIM SADJADPOUR.

>>> THEN --A FEARLESS PEEK AT PRO WAR PROPAGANDA IN RUSSIAN CLASSROOMS, I SPEAK TO CO- DIRECTOR DAVID BORENSTEIN ABOUT HIS OSCAR-NOMINATED DOCUMENTARY "MR.

NOBODY AGAINST PUTIN."

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> YOU WANT FEDERAL OFFICERS TO HAVE THE SENSE THAT THE OUGHT NOT TO CROSS, THAT THERE ARE RULES THAT BIND THEM.

>> IN THE WAKE OF THE MINNEAPOLIS SHOOTINGS, MANY AMERICANS DEMAND ANSWERS AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

GEORGETOWN LAW PROFESSOR STEVEN VLADECK TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE POSSIBLE PATHS TO JUSTICE.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

>>> IS TIME RUNNING OUT FOR IRAN?

PRESIDENT TRUMP 70 A SENT A CLEAR MESSAGE, AGREE TO A DEAL OR FACE AN ATTACK WORSE THAN LAST SUMMER.

WITH THE U.S.

MOVING ITS MILITARY FORCES INTO THE REGION, TRUMP APPEARS TO BE SETTING THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER ATTACK.

IN RESPONSE, IRAN SAYS ITS ARMED FORCES ARE READY WITH THEIR "FINGERS ON THE TRIGGER" WHILE A KEY ADVISER TO SUPREME LEADER ALI KHAMENEI WARNS ISRAEL WILL BE TARGETED IN AN ATTACK GOES AHEAD.

THIS COMES AT A PIVOTAL MOMENT FOR IRAN.

THOUSANDS WERE KILLED IN THE LATEST GOVERNMENT CRACKDOWN.

THE ECONOMY IS IN CRISIS AND THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD IS FACING INTERNATIONAL SANCTIONS.

SO WITH SOURCES SAYING HE MAY BE TRYING TO INSPIRE REGIME CHANGE, WILL TRUMP BE TEMPTED TO STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT OR WILL HE HEED IRON'S WARNINGS ABOUT THE RISKS OF PROVOKING A REGIONAL WAR?

VICE ADMIRAL KEVIN DONEGAN SERVED OPERATIONS FOR U.S.

CENTRAL COMMANDS WHICH INCLUDES THE MIDDLE EAST.

HE JOINS ME TO BREAK DOWN THE OPTIONS ON TRUMP'S TABLE.

KEVIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

AS WE NOTED, THE U.S.

HAS AMASSED A SIGNIFICANT MILITARY PRESENCE IN THE REGION, WHAT THE PRESIDENT DESCRIBED AS AN ARMADA NOW IN PLACE THERE CURRENTLY CONSISTING OF TEN WARSHIPS, A SURGE OF DEFENSE AERIAL AND MISSILE DEFENSE ASSETS AND THE PRESIDENT, IN ADDITION TO DEMANDING CONCESSIONS ON IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM, IS MOVING ON TO ITS PROXY PROGRAMS AND BALLISTIC MISSILE PROGRAMS AS WELL.

WELL WITH IRAN ON ALL THREE FRONTS.

I KNOW YOU SAID THERE'S NO CRYSTAL BALL IN FRONT OF YOU IN TERMS OF WHAT THE U.S.

WILL ULTIMATELY DO, BUT GIVEN THIS MASSIVE PRESENCE, THE PRESIDENT'S RHETORIC AND PAST ACTIONS, DO YOU THINK A KINETIC STRIKE IS NOW LIKELY?

>> I THINK IT'S LIKELY IF THE IRANIANS DON'T HEED THE WARNINGS THAT THEY'VE GOTTEN TO COME TO THE TABLE AND NEGOTIATE IN THE WAY THAT WILL APPEASE WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION WANTS FROM THE IRANIANS, WHICH AS YOU KNOW, IT RELATES TO NOT HAVING --NOT MOVING FORWARD WITH THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM IN TERMS OF ENRICHMENT, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF NOT CREATING THE HAVOC THAT THEY HAVE WITH THEIR OTHER PROXY FORCES IN THE REGION.

SO I BELIEVE RIGHT NOW THE HANDS OF WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IS MAYBE IN THE HANDS OF THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE'S MADE IT CLEAR FOR THEM COME TO THE TABLE OR ELSE.

SO THE QUESTION, THEN, IS WHAT WILL THE U.S.

DO WITH THE MILITARY ACTIONS AND THEN WHAT'S THE AFTERMATH OF THAT?

THOSE ARE THE CRITICAL QUESTIONS THAT WILL REMAIN BECAUSE THAT'S THE PART WHERE THERE'S REALLY NOT A CRYSTAL BALL ON WHAT WILL THAT U.S.

MILITARY ACTIONS, WHAT IMPACT WILL THAT HAVE ON THE REGIME?

>> THESE WERE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS SECRETARY OF STATE AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER MARCO RUBIO WAS ASKED YESTERDAY WHEN HE TESTIFIED BEFORE THE SENATE ON THIS VERY ISSUE, IS A STRIKE LIKELY AND, IF SO, WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL AND THE DAY AFTER PLAN?

HERE'S HOW HE RESPONDED.

>> I THINK IT'S WISE AND PRUDENT TO HAVE A FORCED POSTURE WITHIN THE REGION THAT COULD RESPOND AND POTENTIALLY, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT IF NECESSARY, PREEMPTIVELY PREVENT THE ATTACK AGAINST THOUSANDS OF SERVICEMEN AND OTHERS IN THE REGION AND OUR ALLIES.

>> HE ALSO MADE CLEAR HE DOESN'T EXACTLY KNOW WHAT THE DAY AFTER WOULD LOOK LIKE AND HOW IT WOULD UNFOLD.

JUDGING BY WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM HIM --AND IT WAS A LENGTHY TESTIMONY --IS THE U.S.

PRESENCE THERE MORE DEFENSIVELY OR IS IT THERE FOR A POTENTIAL OFFENSIVE MEASURE AND JUST PREPARED PERHAPS IF, THEN, IRAN RESPONDS IN KIND?

>> WHAT'S VERY CLEAR IS THE FORCE HAS BEEN POSTURED FOR BOTH OF THOSE.

YOU HEARD ABOUT THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER AND MENTIONED THE OTHER THINGS ALSO PUT FORWARD AND PART OF THAT WAS ADDITIONAL BOLSTERING OF THE DEFENSE BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE, IF THE U.S.

TOOK MILITARY ACTION, AN EXPECTED RESPONSE FROM THE IRANIANS.

SO CENTCOM HAS CLEARLY ASKED FOR AND GOTTEN THE FORCES THEY NEED TO BOTH CARRY ON A SUSTAINED OPERATION, IF THAT WAS THE ORDER GIVEN, BUT ALSO POSTURE TO DEFEND OUR ASSETS AND FORCES IN THE REGION BECAUSE BOTH THOSE KINDS OF FORCES HAD BEEN BROUGHT FORWARD BASICALLY THE PRESIDENT TO HAVE THE OPTION TO USE THE FORCES AND THEN IF HE DID, TO ADEQUATELY DEFEND OUR FORCES IN THE REGION.

SO BOTH OF THOSE ARE TRUE, IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> YES.

AS WE ALREADY NOTED, THE IRANIANS HAVE RESPONDED THAT ANY SORT OF STRIKE FROM THE UNITED STATES WOULD THEN BE FOLLOWED BY AN IRANIAN STRIKE AGAINST ISRAEL, THIS AFTER A 12- DAY WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN WHERE ISRAEL DID SUFFER SOME DAMAGE AS WELL, BUT REALLY DEGRADED A LOT OF IRAN'S NOT ONLY AIR DEFENSE PROGRAM, BUT ITS BALLISTIC MISSILE PROGRAM.

THAT IS ALSO NOW A KEY DEMAND FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IT'S NOT JUST THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

IT'S THEIR PROXIES, WHICH HAVE BEEN DEGRADED OVER THE LAST YEAR AFTER OCTOBER 7th, AND ITS BALLISTIC MISSILE PROGRAM AND IT SEEMS IRAN DOES NOT WANT TO COMPLY WITH THESE DEMANDS.

THAT LEAVES PRESIDENT TRUMP IN A POSITION TO HAVE TO RESPOND.

MILITARY OBJECTIVES HERE.

YOU SAY IT'S LIKELY NOT REGIME CHANGE.

SO IS IT, THEN, THE IRGC?

IS IT THE BALLISTIC MISSILES PROGRAM?

WHAT IS THE MOST FEASIBLE TARGET FOR THE UNITED STATES TO ACHIEVE SUCCESSFULLY?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT WOULD BE, BUT WHAT IT COULD ENTAIL, OF COURSE, IS BECAUSE A LOT OF THE TALK HAS BEEN ON WHAT THE PROCESSORS HAVE DONE.

SO THE INTENT WOULD BE TO GO AFTER THOSE THAT SUPPORT THE PROTESTERS, I MEAN THAT HAVE OPPRESSED THE PROTESTERS AND SPEARHEAD OPERATIONS AGAINST THE PROTESTERS.

THAT INCLUDES THE IRGC.

ONE OPTION WOULD BE TO WEAKEN, DEGRADE, AND DESTROY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE THAT INTERNAL SECURITY APPARATUS, THEIR FACILITIES, LEADERSHIP, THEIR C-2, THEIR HEADQUARTERS.

PAIRED WITH THAT WE WOULD OBVIOUSLY USE CYBERAND CYOPS SO THEIR DECISION MAKING IS DEGRADED, BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE'D WANT TO GO AFTER THOSE BALLISTIC MISSILES THAT CAN RANGE OUR REGIONAL FORCES.

WHEN ISRAEL TOOK THEIR ACTIONS, THEY DID SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE TO THE LONGER RANGE BALLISTIC MISSILES THAT CAN REACH ISRAEL, BUT WE HAVE FORCES POSTURED CLOSER TO IRAN AND THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF MISSILES, DRONES, CRUISE MISSILES THAT IRAN HAS THAT CAN RANGE THOSE FORCES.

SO WHEN I SAID WE'RE POSTURED FOR DEFENSE, PART OF OUR OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS WOULD LIKELY ALSO BE TO TAKE OUT AS MUCH OF THAT CAPABILITY THAT IRAN HAS, TO BLUNT THEIR ABILITY TO COUNTERATTACK AND ALSO TO HAVE FORCES TO DEFEND AGAINST ANY ELEMENT THAT WAS STILL ABLE TO COUNTERATTACK.

>> YEAH.

I BELIEVE ISRAEL ALSO DID SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE TO THE BALLISTIC MISSILE LAUNCHERS THEMSELVES BECAUSE WITHOUT THOSE LAUNCHERS, THE MISSILES ARE PRETTY MUCH USELESS.

WE DID GET SOME PUSHBACK FROM ANY MILITARY OPERATION FROM THE UNITED STATES FROM SOME OF ITS GULF ALLIES, INCLUDING SAUDI ARABIA AND THE UAE.

THEY SAID THEY WOULD NOT BACK A U.S.

STRIKE AND WOULD NOT PROVIDE AIRSPACE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO CONDUCT ANY SORT OF STRIKE.

HOW MUCH OF A SETBACK IS THIS BOTH POLITICALLY AND MILITARILY FOR THE UNITED STATES IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY ULTIMATELY DO?

>> WELL, FROM A MILITARY STANDPOINT WE CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BENEFITED FROM BEING ABLE TO USE BASING AND FACILITIES AND CERTAINLY THE AIRSPACE OF THOSE COUNTRIES.

FROM A GEOPOLITICAL STANDPOINT, IT'S CLEAR THAT THE WAY THOSE COUNTRIES WOULD LOOK AT THE SITUATION IS WHATEVER THE U.S.

WOULD DO, THEY'RE GOING TO BE PROXIMATE CLOSE TO THE ONES IN DANGER AFTERWARDS.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE LEFT -- THEY DON'T GET TO LEAVE THE REGION WHEN IT'S OVER.

STABILITY, BUT THEY ALSO SEE, I THINK --I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THEM --BUT THEY ALSO SEE THE IRANIAN REGIME IS ROTTING.

IT'S NOT ABLE TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR PEOPLE AND PERHAPS THEY'RE LOOKING AT IT THROUGH THE LENS OF EVENTUALLY SOMETHING'S GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN ANYWAY.

SO MAYBE THEY LOOK AT IT THROUGH THAT LENS IN TERMS OF USING MILITARY FORCE RIGHT NOW, BUT FROM A MILITARY STANDPOINT WE HAVE ENOUGH OPTIONS FOR BASING, OVERFLIGHT AND THINGS THAT CENTCOM WOULD NEED TO BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT THE OPERATIONS THE PRESIDENT COULD LIKELY ASK FOR.

>> VICE ADMIRAL KEVIN DONEGAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

SORRY FOR THE TECHNICAL DELAY.

>> THANKS.

>>> WELL, NOW AS TRUMP CONSIDERS CHOICES THAT COULD DETERMINE THEIR FUTURE, IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE CALLING FOR INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT.

THE DEATH TOLL FROM THEIR GOVERNMENT'S VIOLENT CRACKDOWN ON PROTESTS CONTINUES TO RISE WITH ONE HUMAN RIGHTS AGENCY ESTIMATING NEARLY 6,000 PEOPLE OTHER GROUPS ESTIMATE THAT FIGURE IS LIKELY IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS AND NOW THE EU HAS LISTED IRAN'S REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORPS AS A TERRORIST GROUP, YET FROM TRUMP NO MENTION OF THE PEOPLE HE VOWED TO SUPPORT, ANOTHER SEEMINGLY BROKEN PROMISE TO A NATION THAT'S PROCESSING ONE OF ITS DEADLIEST CHAPTERS IN DECADES.

SO HOW'S THE IRANIAN REGIME SHATTERED WHATEVER TRUST AND LEGITIMACY IT ONCE HAD?

OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES SO AND IT'S THE SUBJECT FOR HIS LATEST PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC.

KARIM SADJADPOUR IS A SENIOR FELLOW FOR THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR PEACE AND JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

IN YOUR PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC THIS WEEK YOU DESCRIBE THE REGIME'S CONTRACT WITH ITS PEOPLE PREDATORY, NOT CONSENSUAL AND AFTER WHAT MAY BE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PROTESTERS KILLED IN JUST 48 HOURS THAT FRAMING NOW LOOKS LIKE A TRAGIC UNDERSTATEMENT.

IS THIS A HISTORIC TURNING POINT?

IS THIS THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR THE IRANIAN REGIME WHATEVER THE UNITED STATES MAY DO IN THE HOURS AND DAYS TO COME?

>> I DO THINK, BIANNA, WE ARE ON THE CUSP OF SOME KIND OF TRANSFORMATION WITH IRAN.

IRAN STILL HAS AN 86-YEAR-OLD SUPREME LEADER AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI WHO IS NOT LONG FOR THIS WORLD AND I BELIEVE THAT NOT ONLY DOES THE VAST MAJORITY OF IRANIAN SOCIETY WANTS TO SEE CHANGE, BUT EVEN WITHIN THE VERY UNPOPULAR REGIME, THEY REALIZE THIS CURRENT STATUS QUO IS UNTENABLE.

SO I DO BELIEVE THAT IRAN IS A COUNTRY ON THE CUSP OF CHANGE BECAUSE THERE'S REALLY PROBABLY NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH A GREATER GAP BETWEEN THE ASPIRATIONS OF ITS PEOPLE AND CONDUCT OF ITS REGIME THAN IRAN.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS COMPARED IRAN TO VENEZUELA AND SIGNALED A POSSIBLE MILITARY STRIKE WITH IN TEHRAN IS THAT A THREAT THAT OFFICIALS THERE IN THE REGIME TAKE SERIOUSLY OR DOES IT BOLSTER THEIR ARGUMENT THAT IT'S ONLY RUTHLESS INTERNAL PRESSURE AND CONTROL THAT CAN ULTIMATELY KEEP OUTSIDERS FROM TRYING TO ATTACK?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS REGIME HAS FACED SO MANY EN TANGLEMENTS OVER THE YEARS I THINK THEY'RE A LITTLE OVERCONFIDENT.

THEY CONTINUED TO ISSUE MAJOR THREATS AGAINST U.S.

TROOPS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AGAINST THE UNITED STATES' ARAB PARTNERS AND THEY'VE CONTINUED TO THREATEN ISRAEL, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THIS TIME COULD BE DIFFERENT FOR THEM FOR SIMPLY THE FACT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ROLLED THE DICE IN A BIG WAY AGAINST IRAN ON AT LEAST THREE OCCASIONS.

IN 2018 HE PULLED OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL.

IN 2022 HE ASSASSINATED IRAN'S TOP MILITARY COMMANDER AND, OF COURSE, LAST JUNE HE BOMBED IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES AND HE BELIEVES EACH OF THOSE DECISIONS WERE VINDICATED.

IRAN IS MILITARILY WEAKER THAN IT'S EVER BEEN BECAUSE IT DOESN'T CONTROL ITS OWN SKIES.

IF I WERE THE IRANIAN REGIME, I WOULD NOT BE SLEEPING LIGHTLY AT NIGHT.

>> I SPOKE EARLIER WITH VICE ADMIRAL DONEGAN THERE ABOUT TESTIMONY FROM SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO THIS WEEK.

HE SPOKE ON THE FORCED POSTURE THAT HAS AMASSED IN THE REGION AND HE ALSO SPOKE ABOUT, WHEN ASKED, WHAT THE ULTIMATE PLAN WAS FOR IRAN IF THE UNITED STATES WERE TO ATTACK?

WHAT DOES THE DAY AFTER LOOK LIKE?

HERE'S HOW HE RESPONDED.

>> I DON'T THINK ANYONE CAN GIVE YOU A SIMPLE ANSWER WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN IRAN IF THE SUPREME LEADER AND REGIME WERE TO FALL OTHER THAN THE HOPE THERE WOULD BE SOME ABILITY TO HAVE SOMEBODY WITHIN THEIR SYSTEMS YOU COULD WORK TOWARD A REASONABLE TRANSITION.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF REGIME CHANGE IS ON THE LIST OF THE PRESIDENT'S OPTIONS HERE, HOW FEASIBLE AND VIABLE THAT WOULD BE, BUT IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE, WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EXPERTS LIKE YOURSELF AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME OUT EN MASSE TO PROTEST?

>> AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE MIDDLE EAST OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES, BIANNA, THE UNITED STATES CAN'T CONTROL OUTCOMES EVEN WHEN WE'VE HAD THOUSANDS OF TROOPS, LARGE MILITARY PRESENCE IN PLACES LIKE AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO CONTROL, DICTATE OUTCOMES.

SO I THINK THAT OBVIOUSLY APPLIES TO IRAN AS WELL.

I THINK WHAT PEOPLE IN IRAN ARE REALLY HOPING FOR IS A TRANSFORMATION IN THE COUNTRY'S ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE.

FOR THE LAST ALMOST FIVE DECADES NOW THE ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE OF THE STATE HAS BEEN DEATH TO AMERICA AND DEATH TO ISRAEL.

IT HASN'T PRIORITIZED THE ECONOMIC ASPIRATIONS AND SECURITY OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE ULTIMATELY WHAT PEOPLE IN IRAN WANT.

THEY WANT A GOVERNMENT WHOSE SLOGAN IS LONG LIVE IRAN, NOT DEATH TO AMERICA.

THIS IS A COUNTRY WHICH IN MY VIEW SHOULD BE A G-20 NATION.

IT HAS ENORMOUS NATURAL RESOURCES, OIL AND GAS, AND ENORMOUS HUMAN CAPITAL.

IT HAS ONE OF THE OLDEST CONTINUOUSLY INHABITED CIVILIZATIONS IN THE WORLD AND IT'S PUNCHING WAY BELOW ITS WEIGHT.

AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID, THIS IS A COUNTRY WHICH SHOULD BE CLOSER TO SOUTH KOREA RATHER THAN NORTH KOREA.

>> YEAH.

AND HAS BEEN DECADES MISMANAGING ITS OWN ECONOMY, ITS OWN NATURAL RESOURCES, ET CETERA.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR VIEWS ON HOW THE PRESIDENT HAS GONE ABOUT ADDRESSING THE PROTESTERS DIRECTLY BECAUSE IT WAS OVER A WEEK AGO WHERE HE HAD BEEN SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO PROTESTERS, ENCOURAGING THEM TO COME OUT IN MARCH AND TAKE OVER THEIR OWN INSTITUTION SAYING HELP IS ON THE WAY.

IT DOES APPEAR SOMETHING COULD VERY WELL HAPPEN, BUT HE HASN'T ADDRESSED THE PROTESTERS SINCE THEN AND I'M WONDERING HOW YOU INTERPRET THAT.

>> WELL, THE IRANIAN REGIME DROVE A GIANT TRUCK THROUGH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RED LINE BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP THREATENED ON AT LEAST EIGHT OCCASIONS THAT IF IRAN KILLS PROTESTERS, THEY WOULD HAVE HELL TO PAY AND THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE THEIR BACK AND SINCE THEN ACCORDING TO SOME FIGURES EVEN WITHIN THE REGIME, THEY'VE KILLED AS MANY AS 30,000 PEOPLE.

SO PEOPLE NOW INSIDE IRAN, I THINK, ARE DESPERATELY WAITING TO SEE WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP MAY DO AND THEY'RE STILL HOPING.

I THINK OBVIOUSLY IRAN IS A LARGE COUNTRY, 90 MILLION PEOPLE.

THERE'S A GREAT DIVERSITY OF OPINIONS, BUT AMONG FOLKS WHO HAVE PROTESTED IN THE STREETS, I HAVEN'T HEARD A SINGLE VOICE THAT DOESN'T WANT SOME KIND OF OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE.

>> HOW SIGNIFICANT WAS THIS MOVE NOW FROM THE EU TO REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORPS AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION?

IT REALLY DID SEEM TO ANGER THE REGIME.

>> IT WAS CERTAINLY --IT'S BOTH PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND LEGALLY AND POLITICALLY MEANINGFUL BECAUSE NOW THE EUROPEAN DESIGNATION OF IRAN'S MILITARY, IRGC, AS A TERRORIST ENTITY, IT ESSENTIALLY SHIFTS THE CONVERSATION.

YOU'RE NO LONGER DEALING WITH A SOVEREIGN NATION AND THE MILITARY A SOVEREIGN NATION.

YOU'RE DEALING WITH A TERRORIST ENTITY, AS WE WERE DEALING, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH I.S.I.S.

AND SO THE LEGAL ABILITY TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST THAT ENTITY, WHETHER IT'S KINETIC ACTION OR TO SEIZE ASSETS, YOU HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LEEWAY TO DO THAT.

SO I THINK FOR EUROPE THIS WAS A BIG PSYCHOLOGICAL SHIFT IN THEIR LONG TIME DEALINGS WITH IRAN.

>> AS WE'RE TRYING TO DECIPHER HOW IRAN WILL RESPOND TO THESE LATEST DEMANDS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP, IT'S IMPORTANT TO READ YOUR PIECE WHERE YOU EMPHASIZE THE SUPREME LEADER'S WORLD VIEW AS BOTH THEOLOGICAL AND ABSOLUTIST.

SO IN TERMS OF ANY SORT OF COMPROMISE, IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT AT LEAST ACCORDING TO HIM IN ANY DECISIONS HE SIGNS OFF ON THAT THERE IS MUCH ROOM FOR IT.

>> YOU KNOW, BIANNA, HE IS THE LONGEST SERVING DICTATOR IN THE WORLD, RULING FOR FOUR DECADES NOW.

YOU DON'T GET THAT TITLE IF FEWER A RECKLESS GAMBLER.

ON ONE HAND, HE OBVIOUSLY HAS TREMENDOUS SURVIVAL INSTINCTS.

ULTIMATELY HE SENDS OTHERS OUT TO BECOME MARTYRS, BUT HE WANTS TO DIE A SUPREME LEADER.

SO HE HAS SURVIVAL INSTINCTS AND THEN HE HAS THESE RESISTANCE INSTINCTS.

HE'S LONG BELIEVED WHENEVER YOU'RE BEING PRESSURED, WHETHER BY YOUR OWN CITIZENS OR OUTSIDE POWERS LIKE THE UNITED STATES, YOU SHOULD NEVER GIVE INTO THAT PRESSURE BECAUSE THAT IS NOT GOING TO PROJECT STRENGTH.

INVITE EVEN MORE PRESSURE.

SO I THINK AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI RIGHT NOW IS PROBABLY DEEP UNDERGROUND IN A BUNKER AND HIS LONG TIME INSTINCTS ARE INTENTIONAL OF ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE ON ONE HAND, HE WANTS TO SURVIVE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WANT TO RESIST AND I THINK HE'S BEEN PUT IN A BIND BY U.S.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WHO HAS SHOWN HIMSELF CAPABLE OF DOING DEALS AND DROPPING BOMBS.

>> DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES KNOWS WHERE THAT BUNKER IS, KARIM?

>> I DO THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES KNOWS WHERE THE SUPREME LEADER IS LOCATED.

I DO THINK IT IS A QUESTION THEY'RE CURRENTLY DELIBERATING ABOUT WHETHER TO TAKE A STRATEGY WHICH IS TANTAMOUNT TO DECAPITATION OPERATION TARGETING THE SUPREME LEADER HIMSELF.

>> VERY TENSE DAYS AHEAD.

WE WILL BE CALLING ON YOU, FOR SURE, AGAIN.

KARIM SADJADPOUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> 1.2 MILLION, THAT'S HOW MANY RUSSIAN SOLDIERS ARE ESTIMATED TO HAVE BEEN KILLED, WOUNDED, OR LOST SINCE THE INVASION OF UKRAINE NEARLY FOUR YEARS AGO.

THE FIGURE COMES FROM A NEW REPORT WHICH CALCULATES RUSSIA'S MILITARY LOSSES AS ALMOST DOUBLE UKRAINE'S.

IT'S A RARE GLIMPSE INTO A WAR SHROUDED IN SECRECY AND DECEIT.

NOW A NEW FILM DOCUMENTS ONE MAN'S MISSION TO LIFT THE CURTAIN AND SHOW THE WORLD THE REALITY OF LIVING UNDER PUTIN'S PRO WAR PROPAGANDA MACHINE.

IT'S CALLED "MR.

NOBODY AGAINST PUTIN."

HERE'S PART OF THE TRAILER.

DAYS AFTER RECEIVING AN OSCAR NOMINATION, CO-DIRECTOR DAVID BORENSTEIN JOINS ME NOW.

I WAS BORN IN THE SOVIET UNION.

THIS WAS VERY HARD AND VERY PAINFUL TO WATCH, BUT SO IMPORTANT.

SO CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR WELL- DESERVED NOMINATION.

YOUR DOCUMENTARY TAKES US DURING WARTIME.

HOW DID THIS PROJECT COME ABOUT?

HOW DID YOU MEET POSHA, WHO WAS AN AIR RAIDER HERE?

>> HE RESPONDED TO AN AD PUBLISHED BY AN RUSSIAN COMPANY.

IT SAID SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF HOW HAS THE "SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION" IN UKRAINE CHANGED YOUR JOB?

ACTUALLY THAT COMPANY WAS LOOKING FOR POSITIVE STORIES FROM THE RUSSIAN PERSPECTIVE, SO STORIES ABOUT WORKPLACES THAT WERE COMING TOGETHER TO WRITE LETTERS TO SOLDIERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT POSHA, THE MAIN CHARACTER AND MY CO- DIRECTOR, HE SAW THAT AD AND RESPONDED BY SAYING, "LET ME TELL YOU HOW MY JOB HAS CHANGED."

HE SAID HE WAS TURNED INTO A PROPAGANDIST AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO WORK EVERY DAY FILLED WITH GUILT AND DESPAIR AND HE WANTED TO SHOW THE WORLD WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

NOW THE RUSSIAN WEB CONTENT COMPANY GOT THAT LETTER AND COULDN'T DO IT THEMSELVES, BUT THROUGH A TWIST OF FATE IT ENDED UP IN MY HANDS AND POSHA AND I STARTED WORKING TOGETHER.

>> AND I'M SO GLAD THAT THE TWO OF YOU CONNECTED AND POSHA, WOW, WHAT A BRAVE INDIVIDUAL.

YOU KNOW, HEROES COME IN ALL SHAPES, FORMS, SIZES, BACKGROUNDS, PERSONALITIES AND HE DEFINITELY PROVES TO BE ONE HERE.

HE CALLS HIMSELF A NOBODY.

HE'S NOT AN ACTIVIST.

HE WORKS AT A SCHOOL IN THE SAME CITY AND TOWN WHERE HE GREW UP, THE SAME SCHOOL WHERE HE ATTENDED.

HE'S A TEACHER TRYING TO DO HIS JOB, BUT IN TERMS OF RESISTANCE JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT HIS WORK, WHAT HIS DETERMINATION TO GET THIS VIDEO MADE SAYS ABOUT HIM.

>> WELL, HE WAS COMMITTED TO TELLING THE WORLD WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN HIS SCHOOL.

HE'S THE KIND OF TEACHER AT THAT SCHOOL I THINK A LOT OF US HE'S THE KIND OF GUY THAT A LOT OF THE STUDENTS WOULD HANG OUT IN HIS OFFICE JUST BECAUSE HE MADE THEM FEEL COMFORTABLE, KIDS THAT DIDN'T FIT IN WERE OFTEN HANGING OUT IN HIS OFFICE.

I HAD A TEACHER LIKE THIS.

>> YEAH.

>> WHEN I FIRST SAW FOOTAGE FROM POSHA'S CLASSROOM, I IMMEDIATELY SAW WHAT KIND OF PERSON HE IS, BUT THROUGHOUT THE NEXT FEW YEARS OF CHANGES THAT CAME AS A RESULT OF RUSSIA'S FULL-SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE, HIS SCHOOL WAS BASICALLY TURNED INTO A RECRUITMENT CENTER FOR THE MILITARY.

ALL EDUCATION AND SO MUCH OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THAT SCHOOL WAS TRANSFORMED INTO SOMETHING THAT WAS TRYING TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO JOIN THE MILITARY AND EVEN PREPARE THEM TO FIGHT WITHIN THE SCHOOL.

SO HE DOESN'T REPRESENT SOMEONE FROM MOSCOW OR ST.

PETERSBURG.

HE'S A VERY NORMAL PERSON AND WHAT HE IS DRIVEN BY IS A COMMITMENT TO HIS STUDENTS, WANTING THEM TO STAY COMFORTABLE, TO KEEP FEELING THAT DROVE HIM TO DO THIS.

OVER TWO YEARS OF WORKING TOGETHER, HE UNDERTOOK A LOT OF RISK TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN AND HE JUST FOLLOWED IT ALL THE WAY THROUGH.

HE NEVER WAVERED.

HE SHOT UNDERCOVER AND AT THE END HE HAD TO FLEE RUSSIA IN ORDER TO GET THIS FOOTAGE OUT AND BUT THE FILM OUT INTO THE WORLD.

>> AND THAT BRAVERY IS SO ADMIRABLE.

THE FILM SHOOTS IN THIS PRIMARY SCHOOL IN A CITY CALLED KARABASH.

IT IS A SMALL, POOR, HEAVILY POLLUTED CITY, AN INDUSTRIAL TOWN IN THE RURAL MOUNTAINS, AND IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THROUGHOUT THE WAR PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS ALWAYS CALLED THIS A SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION AND HAS TRIED ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY DAYS TO SHIELD RESIDENTS IN ST.

PETERSBURG AND WHEN IT CAME TO RECRUITING SOLDIERS, THEY WOULD REACH OUT TO THESE RURAL POOR CITIES WHERE THEY WOULD INDEED RECRUIT THESE CAME FROM POSHA'S OWN SCHOOL.

THERE ARE CLIPS IN THIS FILM, NOT ONLY IS IT STUNNING HOW QUICKLY EVERYTHING CHANGED ONCE THE WAR BEGAN, BUT THE RECRUITMENT EFFORT ITSELF INCLUDING MEMBERS FROM THE NOTORIOUS WAGNER MERCENARY GROUP.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM THAT.

WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU AND WHAT DO YOU WANT AUDIENCES TO TAKE AWAY IN TERMS OF HOW EXPENDABLE THE KREMLIN AND VLADIMIR PUTIN VIEWED THESE PUPILS IN THEIR FAR-AWAY CITIES?

>> I THINK THAT'S VERY CLEAR JUST FROM WATCHING THE FOOTAGE AND THE FILM IN GENERAL.

MY ROLE ON THIS FILM WAS SOMETHING OF AN EDITOR.

POSHA WOULD SEND ME FOOTAGE FROM KARABASH AND I WOULD EDIT TOGETHER AND I WOULD WATCH SO MANY CLIPS OF THESE KIDS.

HE SENT ME A LOT OF FOOTAGE OF JUST THE KIDS HANGING OUT IN HIS OFFICE AND I DEVELOPED MY OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM AND SO AS I SAW FOODAGE LIKE THIS WHERE THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT HOW TO USE LANDMINES OR HOW TO DO ACTUAL COMBAT READINESS, IT WAS REALLY HARD FOR ME TO SEE.

I HAD MY OWN KIND OF EMOTIONAL CONNECTION WITH THEM AND I REALLY WAS ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT FROM POSHA'S PERSPECTIVE.

IT'S HEARTBREAKING.

IT'S HEARTBREAKING AS A TEACHER TO SEE YOUR KIDS GO THROUGH THIS AND TO BE TREATED AS EXPENDABLE.

I THINK THERE'S ONE MORE THING THAT FOOTAGE LIKE THIS TELLS US.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE PROPAGANDA CLASSES TAUGHT NOW IN SCHOOLS IN RUSSIA, YOU'LL SEE PUTIN HAS ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION OF STOPPING WITH UKRAINE.

ONE OF THE COMMON THEMES IN THESE LESSONS THAT YOU SEE IS THE PREPARATION AND THE CREATION OF A NEW GENERATION OF KIDS AND FUTURE SOLDIERS WHO ARE COMMITTED TO EMPIRE AND WAR.

>> AND VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOU SHOW THIS IN THE FILM --I REMEMBER THIS IN REALTIME --HE DECLARED THAT WARS ARE "NOT WON BY COMMANDERS, BUT BY SCHOOLTEACHERS."

SO THIS WAS THE POLICY.

THIS IS THE PLANNING, TO INDOCTRINATE THESE KIDS AS YOUNG AS POSSIBLE ALMOST ON A DAILY BASIS AND YOU REALLY HAVE TWO ENDS OF THE SPECTRUM.

ON ONE EXTREME YOU HAVE SOMEONE LIKE POSHA WHO NOT ONLY IS JUST DISGUSTED BY THIS, BUT SPEAKS OUT AGAINST IT AND IS RECORDING IT AND ON THE OTHER EXTREME IS A TEACHER WHO REALLY FEELS THAT HE'S SUPPORTIVE AND THAT'S HOW HE COMES ACROSS AND IS ABLE TO ECHO AND MIMIC AND REPEAT SOME OF THE KREMLIN TALKING POINTS VERY EASY.

THEN HE'S AWARDED TEACHER OF THE YEAR AND GIVEN A FREE APARTMENT.

MY REAL FOCUS ARE THOSE TEACHERS WHO ARE SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE WHO MAY BE MORE ALIGNED WITH POSHA BUT ARE TOO FEARFUL TO SPEAK OUT.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP OF THAT ONE TEACHER WHO WON THE APARTMENT AND TEACHER OF THE YEAR FIRST.

THIS IS THE SAME TEACHER WHEN ASKED WHO IN TERMS OF HISTORIC FIGURES HE WOULD LOVE TO MEET MOST, HE SAID STALIN'S HENCHMAN.

YOUR REACTION TO HIM AND THEN THOSE TEACHERS WHO FALL SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE?

>> I THINK THE REACTION IS TRYING TO GET VIEWERS THEMES ABOUT SIMPLICITY AND ALSO IMAGINE WHAT THEY WOULD DO IN A SIMILAR SITUATION.

THIS SCHOOL WHERE HE WAS A TEACHER CHANGED SO DRAMATICALLY IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

A TEACHER'S ABILITY TO TEACH FREELY WAS MASSIVELY DISRUPTED AND I THINK SO MANY OF THE TEACHERS KNEW THAT WHAT WAS HAPPENING WAS WRONG.

THE VAST MAJORITY, IN FACT, >> THEY COULDN'T EVEN PRONOUNCE HALF OF THESE WORDS.

>> RIGHT, YEAH.

SO MANY OF THE TEACHERS ARE LITERALLY READING FROM A SCRIPT AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THEY'RE DOING IT VERY HALFHEARTEDLY.

I THINK THAT YOU'RE RIGHT TO SAY THERE ARE A VARIETY OF REACTIONS.

YOU HAVE POSHA WHO GAVE UP SO MUCH TO SHOW THE WORLD WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

YOU HAVE PABLO WHO WE JUST SAW WHO PERFORMED THE PROPAGANDA WITH GUSTO, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY JUST GO ALONG WITH IT HALFHEARTEDLY.

IT IS A PRETTY INTERESTING AND POTENT EXAMPLE OF THE BENALITY OF EVIL.

THEY'RE GOING ALONG WITH IT, BUT THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN IT AND I THINK THAT ACTUALLY IS A NICE AND IMPORTANT CHARACTERIZATION OF THE RUSSIAN SYSTEM OVERALL.

>> HOW IS POSHA DOING NOW?

I KNOW HE LEFT THE COUNTRY.

HE WAS, AS YOU NOTED, REALLY THE DRIVING FORCE HERE OF THIS FILM.

HOW IS HE DOING AND HOW IS HIS MOTHER BACK HOME?

WHAT HAS THE REACTION BEEN SINCE HE'S LEFT SINCE THE FILM'S BEEN MADE PUBLIC?

>> YEAH.

POSHA IS DOING WELL.

IN ORDER TO MAKE THE FILM AND PUT IT OUT INTO THE WORLD AND NOT GET ARRESTED, HE HAD TO FLEE BEFORE WE PREMIERED IT LAST YEAR.

SO HE IS IN EUROPE RIGHT NOW.

HE HAS RECEIVED ASYLUM.

HE CAN TRAVEL AND PROMOTE THE FILM AND HE IS DOING WELL.

HIS MOTHER IS ALSO DOING WELL.

SHE'S A CHARACTER IN THE FILM.

SHE'S THE SCHOOL LIBRARIAN AND SHE STILL IS THE SCHOOL LIBRARIAN AT THE PRIMARY SCHOOL NUMBER ONE AND BEYOND THAT, MOST PEOPLE IN KARABASH HAVE SEEN THE FILM AND MANY PEOPLE IN RUSSIA HAVE SEEN THE FILM AND WE GET MESSAGES EVERY SINGLE DAY FROM PEOPLE.

THERE'S A WIDE VARIETY OF REACTION FROM PEOPLE CALLING POSHA A TRADER TO THE MOTHERLAND TO PEOPLE REALLY SUPPORTING WHAT POSHA IS DOING.

IN FACT, ONE INTERESTING REACTION POSHA GOT WAS FROM TEACHERS FROM A NEIGHBORING SCHOOL.

THEY SAID YOU KNOW WHAT?

SOME TEACHER HAD TO DO THIS.

WE'RE JUST REALLY SURPRISED IT'S FROM KARABASH.

>> WELL, PLEASE GIVE POSHA OUR BEST.

AGAIN, THIS WAS AN INCREDIBLE AND SUCH AN IMPORTANT DOCUMENTARY TO MAKE.

MY PARENTS' FIRST REACTION SADLY OUT OF THIS WAS THAT NOTHING WILL CHANGE IN THAT COUNTRY AS LONG AS VLADIMIR PUTIN IS IN POWER.

I WOULD IMAGINE POSHA DOES AGREE WITH THAT SENTIMENT AS WELL.

DAVID BORENSTEIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT FILM AND THE NOMINATION FOR AN OSCAR.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW FOLLOWING THE FATAL SHOOTINGS OF TWO U.S.

CITIZENS BY IMMIGRATION AGENTS IN MINNEAPOLIS, PRESIDENT TRUMP SENT BORDER CZAR TOM HOMAN TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE IMMIGRATION ABRASION THERE.

EARLIER HOMAN INSISTED NEITHER HE, NOR THE PRESIDENT, WANT TO SEE ANYBODY DIE BUT EMPHASIZED HOSTILE RHETORIC TOWARDS IMMIGRATION OFFICERS MUST STOP.

THIS COMES AS A PAIR OF FEDERAL AGENTS INVOLVED IN ALEX PRETTI'S DEATH HAVE BEEN PLACED ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE, BUT WILL THEY ULTIMATELY BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE?

GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR STEVEN VLADECK SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE ROLE STATE AND LOCAL COURTS CAN PLAY IN PURSUING JUSTICE.

>> STEVEN VLADECK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A RECENT ESSAY IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" WHERE YOU ARE ARGUING ESSENTIALLY ALONG WITH LAW PROFESSOR BARRY FRIEDMAN THAT THE MINNEAPOLIS SHOOTINGS IS A CASE WHERE WE NEED A DIFFERENT PATH TO LOCAL ACCOUNTABILITY.

YOU'RE ASKING FOR STATE AND LOCAL PROSECUTORS TO PICK UP THE BALL.

TELL ME WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS AND WHAT'S NOT HAPPENING HERE.

>> SURE.

USUALLY OR AT LEAST HISTORICALLY WHEN FEDERAL OFFICERS CROSS THE LINE, THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT WAYS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MIGHT HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

THE FIRST WAS, OF COURSE, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH ITSELF MIGHT DISCIPLINE OFFICERS WHO CROSS THE LINE ALL THE WAY UP TO AS RECENTLY AS 2019, HARI, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TOLD THE SUPREME COURT THAT WAS THE RIGHT SOLUTION WHEN A BORDER PATROL HAD SHOT AND KILLED A 15- YEAR-OLD MEXICAN NATIONAL ALONG THE U.S./MEXICO BORDER.

OBVIOUSLY THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK WITH AN ADMINISTRATION THAT WON'T EVEN INVESTIGATE THE ISSUES, LET ALONE PROSECUTE THEM.

HISTORICALLY THE OTHER REMEDY WAS DAMAGES WAS A CIVIL REMEDY WHERE VICTIMS OR THEIR FAMILIES COULD SEEK DAMAGES IN FEDERAL COURT UNDER FEDERAL LAW AGAINST PERPETRATORS, U.S.

OFFICERS WHO VIOLATED THEIR RIGHTS.

HARI, THE SUPREME COURT HAS REALLY MADE THOSE KINDS OF REMEDIES ELUSIVE.

THE COURT HAS ALL BUT CLOSED THE DOOR.

SO THAT REALLY LEAVES THE STATES AS THE LAST LINE OF DEFENSE.

MAYBE FOR TORT REMEDIES, FOR DAMAGES, BUT ESPECIALLY FOR CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS, NOT BECAUSE THAT'S THE IDEAL SYSTEM, BUT BECAUSE IT REALLY IS ALL WE HAVE UNTIL AND UNLESS CONGRESS WERE TO PROVIDE A MORE COMPREHENSIVE REMEDIAL REGIME AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

>> SO WHAT SHOULD THE STATE OF MINNESOTA DO?

>> I THINK THE FIRST QUESTION IS HOW MUCH EVIDENCE IS THE STATE OR EVEN LOCAL PROSECUTORS IN HENNEPIN COUNTY, HOW MUCH EVIDENCE ARE THEY ABLE TO AMASS ON THEIR OWN?

WE'VE ALREADY HAD REPORTS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NOT BEEN COOPERATING WITH THEIR ATTEMPTS TO PROVIDE THEIR OWN INVESTIGATION.

THAT, OF COURSE, IS ALSO A NEW TWIST ON WHAT HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY A VERY COMMON SORT OF SYMMETRICAL BACK-AND-FORTH RELATIONSHIP.

HOW MUCH EVIDENCE CAN THEY GET ON THEIR OWN?

WE ALREADY HAD THE CITY AND STATE GO TO FEDERAL COURT OVER THE WEEKEND TO OBTAIN A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER BLOCKING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FROM GETTING RID OF ANY OF THE EVIDENCE IT COLLECTED, BUT DO THEY NEED WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS TO PURSUE THESE CASES?

CAN YOU GO TO A GRAND JURY, FOR EXAMPLE, BASED SOLELY ON WITNESS STATEMENTS AND THESE VIDEOTAPES?

EVEN IF YOU CAN GO TO A GRAND JURY, HARI, AT THAT POINT EVEN IF THERE'S AN INDICTMENT, THE DEFENDANT OFFICERS WOULD REMOVE THE CASE TO FEDERAL COURT AND ARGUE THEY HAVE IMMUNITY.

AT THAT POINT WE'D HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THE REAL TEST FOR NECESSITY AND REASONABLENESS IN THIS CONTEXT?

HOW ARE THESE OFFICERS TRAINED?

WHAT DID THEY THINK?

WHAT WERE THEY TOLD TO DO WHEN THEY WERE CONFRONTING SOMEONE THEY WERE TRYING TO ARREST?

THESE ARE ALL QUESTIONS I THINK FOLKS ARE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS ABOUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE LITIGATED IF THE STATE OR LOCAL PROSECUTORS WANTED TO GO THAT FAR.

>> BACK IN OCTOBER WHEN GOVERNOR PRITZKER OF ILLINOIS SUGGESTED SOMETHING LIKE THIS, STEPHEN MILLER RESPONDED ON I.C.E.

NEWS.

>> TO ALL I.C.E.

OFFICERS, YOU HAVE FEDERAL IMMUNITY IN THE CONDUCT OF YOUR DUTIES AND ANYBODY WHO LAYS A HAND ON YOU OR TRIES TO STOP YOU OR OBSTRUCT YOU IS COMMITTING A FELONY.

YOU HAVE IMMUNE TO PERFORM YOUR DUTIES AND NO ONE, NO CITY OFFICIAL, NO STATE OFFICIAL, NO ILLEGAL ALIEN, NO LEFTIST AGITATOR OR DOMESTIC FROM FULFILLING YOUR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS AND DUTIES.

>> FOR THE RECORD, IS STEPHEN MILLER WRONG ABOUT IT?

DO THESE PEOPLE NOT HAVE IMMUNITY?

>> SO THERE'S A DOCTRINE CALLED SUPREMACY CLAUSE IMMUNITY.

THE CRITICAL POINT TO SAY AT THE TOP IS THIS KIND OF IMMUNITY IS NOT ABSOLUTE.

SO WHEN STEPHEN MILLER, WHEN J.D.

VANCE, WHEN KRISTI NOEM MAKE THESE BROAD CATEGORICAL STATEMENTS ABOUT IMMUNITY, THEY'RE LEAVING OUT THE CRITICAL NUANCE WHICH IS THAT IMMUNITY CAN BE OVERCOME.

THIS IS A DOCTRINE THAT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED BY THE SUPREME COURT AND ESPECIALLY LOWER FEDERAL COURTS IN A SERIES OF CASES DATING BACK TO 8 1890 AND THE IDEA IS YES, FEDERAL OFFICERS WHO ARE CARRYING OUT THEIR DUTIES REASONABLY AND RESPONSIBLY ARE IMMUNE FROM PROSECUTION BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION ELEVATES FEDERAL LAW OVER STATE LAW, BUT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID IN DOCTRINE BACK TO 1890, IT GIVES WAY WHEN THE FEDERAL OFFICER'S CONDUCT WAS NEITHER NECESSARY TO CARRYING OUT THEIR FEDERAL DUTIES, NOR A REASONABLE MEANS OF DOING SO.

SO THERE ARE THESE TWO DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS THAT WHAT THE FEDERAL OFFICER WAS DOING WHEN HE OR SHE BROKE STATE LAW HAS TO HAVE BEEN A NECESSARY PART OF THEIR FEDERAL DUTIES AND THE SPECIFIC ACTIONS HAVE TO HAVE BEEN A REASONABLE MEANS OF CARRYING THOSE DUTIES INTO EFFECT.

HARI, I DON'T WANT TO PREJUDGE ANYTHING, BUT BASED ON THE VIDEO EVIDENCE OUT OF MINNEAPOLIS, HARD TO SEE HOW YOU CAN MEET THAT STANDARD IN EITHER THE RENEE GOOD OR THE ALEX PRETTI SHOOTINGS.

THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S A DRAMATIC REALLY DEEPLY MISLEADING OVERSTATEMENT FOR STEPHEN MILLER, J.D.

VANCE, FOR ALL THESE FOLKS TO SAY HEY, YOU HAVE IMMUNITY.

IN POINT OF FACT, THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY TRUE.

>> YOU SAID IN YOUR PIECE THERE'S KIND OF TWO HURDLES FOR WHAT YOU'RE PROPOSING.

ONE WAS THE SUPREMACY CLAUSE ESSENTIALLY THE ACTIONS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL MIGHT BE TAKING IN THE COURSE OF PERFORMING THEIR DUTIES, THAT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY MEAN IT HAS TO GO TO A FEDERAL COURT, RIGHT?

THE LIKELIHOOD OR UNLIKELIHOOD DEPENDS ON, I GUESS, THE WHIMS OF THAT ADMINISTRATION.

>> TO A DEGREE.

THE CASE WOULD LIKELY GO TO FEDERAL COURT UNDER THE FEDERAL OFFICER REMOVAL STATUTE.

THE STATUTE SAYS IF YOU'RE BEING SUED CIVILLY OR CRIMINALLY FOR STUFF YOU DID ON THE JOB AS A FEDERAL OFFICER, YOU CAN MOVE THAT CASE FROM STATE TO FEDERAL COURT, BUT EVEN IN FEDERAL COURT IT WOULD STILL BE LOCAL OR STATE PROSECUTORS.

IT WOULD STILL BE A JURY FROM MINNESOTA, NOT SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY, AND I THINK PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY GIVEN THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, ANY CONVICTION WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE PRESIDENT'S PARDON POWER.

THESE WOULD BE CONVICTIONS EVEN IN FEDERAL COURT FOR STATE OFFENSES.

OF COURSE, THE GOVERNOR WOULD RETAIN THE PARDON POWER, BUT I'M NOT SURE GOVERNOR WALZ WOULD BE IN ANY HURRY TO EXERCISE IT.

I'M STILL SKEPTICAL THIS IS THE BEST ANSWER IN THE LONG TERM THAT STATE PROSECUTIONS RAISE LOTS OF COMPLEXITIES, BUT I GUESS THE QUESTION REALLY REDUCES TO IF THE CHOICE IS NO REMEDY FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO RENEE GOOD AND ALEX PRETTI AND WHAT ELSE HAS HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS VERSUS THE IMPERFECTIONS OF STATE CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS, SEEMS INCREASINGLY OBVIOUS TO ME WE SHOULD BE PREFERRING THE LATTER.

>> I WONDER IF IN THE COURSE OF THEIR INVESTIGATION RIGHT NOW IF THERE'S A MINNEAPOLIS POLICE INVESTIGATION THAT'S TRYING AND FEDERAL AUTHORITIES ARE NOT BEING HELPFUL, WHAT ARE WAYS FOR THEM TO GET AROUND THAT?

>> SOME OF THIS COMES DOWN TO STUFF WE DON'T KNOW AND PROBABLY WON'T KNOW FOR SOME TIME, WHICH IS HOW MUCH EVIDENCE DO THE LOCAL AND STATE OFFICIALS ALREADY HAVE IN THEIR POSSESSION?

HAVE THEY TALKED TO THE RELEVANT WITNESSES?

HAVE THEY BEEN ABLE TO BUILD A COMPREHENSIVE DATABASE OF EVERY SINGLE VIDEO TAKEN AT THE SCENE?

DO THEY HAVE ANY ACCESS TO ANY FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MANY SHOTS WERE FIRED?

DO THEY HAVE ACCESS TO AN AUTOPSY?

I THINK THERE'S A REASON WHY WE AREN'T HEARING A LOT PUBLICLY ABOUT THESE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS, BUT I WOULD EXPECT LOCAL AND STATE PROSECUTORS TO BE MAKING A LOT OF NOISE AT LEAST BEHIND THE SCENES IF THEY ARE BEING THWARTED IN THEIR EFFORTS TO UNCOVER THESE MATERIALS.

WE'VE ALREADY SEEN THEM GO TO COURT ONCE IN THE CASE THAT PRODUCED THE TRO BARRING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH FROM DESTROYING ANY EVIDENCE.

WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IF THEY HAVE TO GO BACK AGAIN IF THERE CONTINUES TO BE A LACK OF COOPERATION.

>> SO A FEDERAL OFFICER, THEN, IF I'M HEARING YOU RIGHT, CAN BE CONVICTED OF SOMETHING IF IT'S BROUGHT BY STATE PROSECUTORS AND IT WOULD HAVE TO BE THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE THAT COULD PARDON.

CORRECT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THERE AREN'T A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF THIS HISTORICALLY BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN VERY LUCKY TO NOT HAVE THAT MANY CASES WHERE FEDERAL OFFICERS BROKE THE LAW AND HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, BUT YES, IT IS NOT INSANE.

IT'S UNFAMILIAR TO US.

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE FOUNDING ACTUALLY, FOR THE FIRST 60, 70 YEARS OF THE REPUBLIC, STATE COURTS WERE THE PRINCIPAL PLACE WHERE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THERE ARE REASONS I THINK WE WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH A UNIFORM SET OF FEDERAL RULES THAT GOVERNED WHEN FEDERAL OFFICERS COULD AND COULD NOT BE HELD LIABLE, BUT CONGRESS IN ITS WISDOM HASN'T PROVIDED THAT.

I THINK THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING MORE AND MORE CALLS FOR STATES TO PROVIDE THIS LAST DOOR BACK STOP.

>> I THINK MOST PEOPLE WONDER LOOK, ONE PERSON TOOK THE LIFE OF ANOTHER AND THAT PERSON DOES NOT SEEM ACCOUNTABLE AND WE SEEM TO HAVE CREATED A SYSTEM WHERE THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE AND THERE DOESN'T AT LEAST RIGHT NOW SEEM TO BE A WAY FOR A CITIZEN OF MINNEAPOLIS TO SAY I AM SAFE HERE BECAUSE THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT CAN TAKE MY LIFE AND THEY SEEM IMMUNE TO ANY >> I THINK THIS GOES SO FAR BEYOND WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN MINNEAPOLIS AND THE TRAGIC CASES OF THE GOOD AND PRETTI SHOOTINGS.

WE'VE BEEN TRENDING THIS DIRECTION THE BETTER PART OF 25 OR 30 YEARS WHERE OVER TIME IT HAS BECOME EVER HARDER AND HARDER AND HARDER TO HOLD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE WHEN IT VIOLATES OUR RIGHTS.

THERE'S ONE BATCH OF CASES WHERE THAT'S NOT BEEN TRUE WHERE THE VIOLATIONS ARE ONGOING WHERE WE'RE CHALLENGING A POLICY OR STATUTE.

COURTS HAVE BEEN PERFECTLY WILLING TO PROVIDE LOTS OF RELIEF IN THOSE CASES THROUGH INJUNCTIONS, THROUGH FORWARD- LOOKING RELIEF, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO BACKWARDS-LOOKING RELIEF FOR CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATIONS THAT HAVE ENDED FOR EXCESSIVE FORCE, FOR UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES, WE'VE SEEN VIDEOS OF I.C.E.

AND OTHER IMMIGRATION OFFICERS BREAKING DOWN THE DOORS OF AMERICANS' HOMES, THAT'S WHERE WE REALLY HAVE THIS REMARKABLY ALARMING GAP THAT HAS SLOWLY BUT STEADILY EXPANDED OVER THE LAST THREE DECADES AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THE REAL LONG TERM SOLUTION HERE IS NOT ABOUT MINNEAPOLIS OR A MINNESOTA STATE PROSECUTION OF THE OFFICERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF RENEE GOOD AND ALEX PRETTI.

I THINK IT'S ABOUT CONGRESS PROVIDING A MEANINGFUL COMPREHENSIVE FRAMEWORK FOR HOLDING FEDERAL OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE WHEN THEY VIOLATE OUR RIGHTS.

WE MAY NOT ALL AGREE ON WHICH CASES WOULD TRIGGER SUCH A REGIME, HARI.

WE MAY NOT AGREE WHETHER RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED IN THIS CASE VERSUS THAT CASE, BUT THAT SHOULD BE UP TO THE COURTS TO DECIDE AND THAT'S WHAT'S REALLY MISSING FROM OUR CURRENT REMEDIAL ARCHITECTURE.

THIS HAS BEEN, I THINK, CLEAR TO THE NERDY LAW PROFESSORS LIKE ME FOR A WHILE NOW, BUT I THINK EVENTS IN MINNEAPOLIS ARE DRIVING HOME TO EVERYBODY WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT GAP REALLY ARE.

>> THERE WAS A CASE OUTSIDE CHICAGO WHERE AN I.C.E.

AGENT WAS CHARGED WITH A MISDEMEANOR FOR PUSHING SOMEONE DOWN, THROWING AN IMMIGRANT RIGHTS ACTIVIST TO THE GROUND, AND I WONDER STEPS COULD WORK.

ARE THERE LOCAL VIOLATIONS THESE INDIVIDUALS WOULD STILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR?

>> IT'S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.

I THINK THIS IS THE CRITICAL POINT OF ALL THIS.

THE REASON WHY PEOPLE LIKE ME, I THINK, ARE SO INVESTED IN SOME KIND OF RECOURSE, SOME KIND OF REDRESSABILITY IS ACTUALLY SORT OF TWOFOLD.

FIRST OBVIOUSLY YOU WANT SOME MEASURE OF JUSTICE FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO RENEE GOOD, TO ALEX PRETTI, BUT JUST AS IMPORTANT IS YOU WANT DETERRENTS.

YOU WANT FEDERAL OFFICERS TO HAVE THE SENSE THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS A LINE THEY OUGHT NOT TO CROSS, THAT THERE ARE RULES THAT BIND THEM AND THEY'RE GOING TO THINK TWICE BEFORE THEY ENGAGE IN CONDUCT SO EGREGIOUS THEY CROSS THE LINE.

I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS TO ACCOMPLISH THE LATTER, TO STRIVE TOWARD MORE DETERRENTS WHEN IT COMES TO FEDERAL OFFICERS.

THE SORT OF SPITTING ON THE SIDEWALK OR THE TAX EVASION APPROACH, I THINK, RAISES MESSY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FORMER AND WHETHER THAT'S REALLY JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIMS.

I STILL THINK SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT'S WHERE WE ARE, HARI, BUT I THINK WE CAN HAVE TWO CONVERSATIONS AT ONCE, WHAT DO WE DO IN THE SHORT TERM AND LONG TERM?

THE ANSWERS TO BOTH SHOULD BE HOWEVER MUCH ACCOUNTABILITY IS POSSIBLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> STEPHEN, IT SEEMS TO BE PART OF A LARGER PATTERN.

"THE WASHINGTON POST" RECENTLY REPORTED THERE HAVE BEEN 16 CASES AT LEAST WHERE OFFICERS FIRED SHOTS DURING ENFORCEMENT ARRESTS, BUT THEIR ACTIONS WERE DEEMED TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

DOES THIS PATTERN SIGNAL ANYTHING ABOUT HOW THE ADMINISTRATION VIEWS OVERSIGHT?

YOU HAVE MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION SAYING OPENLY AND EMBOLDENING ACTIONS ON THE STREETS BY THEIR FEDERAL AGENTS AND IF THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY SIGNIFICANT AND ANY SIGNIFICANT RECOURSE TO SHOOTING AFTER SHOOTING AFTER SHOOTING, THIS ALMOST BECOMES AN INEVITABILITY THIS WOULD GO THIS FAR?

AMOUNT OF TRUTH TO THAT.

WHAT HAPPENED THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS WAS SADLY AND TRAGICALLY INEVITABLE.

I WORRY PART OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN HOPING FOR ALL ALONG WAS AN EPISODE IN THE OTHER DIRECTION WHERE ONE OF THE PROTESTERS OR ONE OF THE SUSPECTS IN THESE IMMIGRATION RAIDS ACTUALLY OPENED FIRE ON AN I.C.E.

OFFICER OR BORDER PATROL OFFICER AND THAT THAT COULD BECOME A PRETEXT, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR DEPLOYING THE MILITARY UNDER THE INSURRECTION ACT.

WE LIVE IN AN ERA WHERE IT'S VERY HARD TO SEPARATE OUT CYNICISM AND CHARGES OF BAD FAITH WITH WHAT MIGHT ALSO JUST BE STUNNING NEGLIGENCE ON THE PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, BUT WHETHER IT'S MALICIOUS, HARI, OR JUST NEGLIGENT, THE REALITY IS THAT WE HAVE A PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR ON THE PART OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, THE LIKES OF WHICH WE'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE, AND I THINK COURTS ARE STRUGGLING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO RECTIFY THAT PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR IN A CONTENT THEY'RE NOT INJUNCTIONS AGAINST, FOR EXAMPLE, IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IN AN ENTIRE CITY.

SO IT REALLY IS, I THINK, A MISMATCH BETWEEN THE DEGREE OF LAWLESSNESS, WHETHER IT'S INTENTIONAL OR JUST ACCIDENTAL, AND THE HISTORICAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT COURTS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO, WHICH IS TO DEAL WITH INDIVIDUAL CASES.

I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN MINNEAPOLIS AND PART OF WHY A LOT OF FOLKS ARE SO FRUSTRATED THAT THINGS ARE MOVING SEEMINGLY SO SLOWLY.

>> A LOT OF YOUR PIECE AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING REALLY REQUIRES ACTION BY CONGRESS TO TRY TO CLARIFY THESE RULES.

RIGHT NOW THERE ARE A FEW, GROWING NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS THAT ARE TRYING TO PUT SOME PRESSURE ON THE ADMINISTRATION.

THERE'S JOHN CURTISS OF UTAH.

HE RECENTLY WROTE ON MONDAY, "WE MUST HAVE A TRANSPARENT, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION INTO THE MINNESOTA SHOOTING AND THOSE RESPONSIBLE NO MATTER THEIR TITLE.

THEY MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

OFFICIALS WHO RUSHED TO JUDGMENT BEFORE ALL THE FACTS ARE KNOWN UNDERMINE PUBLIC TRUST AND THE LAW ENFORCEMENT MISSION.

I DISAGREE WITH SECRETARY WHICH CAME BEFORE ALL THE FACTS WERE KNOWN AND WEAKENED CONFIDENCE."

AND I WONDER, IS TODAY'S CONGRESS CAPABLE OF PUTTING ENOUGH SHORT-TERM PRESSURE OR LONG-TERM PRESSURE TO TRY TO STRUCTURALLY CLARIFY EXACTLY WHAT A FEDERAL AGENT CAN BE IMMUNE FOR AND WHAT THEY CAN'T?

>> I THINK, HARI, TWO THINGS ARE STILL TRUE.

ONE, EVEN A LITTLE BIT OF POLITICAL PRESSURE CAN GO A LONG WAY.

WE'RE ALREADY SEEING NOT JUST SENATOR CURTISS' STATEMENTS YOU'VE READ, SENATOR TILLIS HAS EXPRESSED DEEP DISSATISFACTION WITH SECRETARY NOEM, SUGGESTED SHE SHOULD LOSE HER POSITION.

THAT'S VERY MILD, BUT IT'S A LOT MORE THAN WE'VE SEEN THE LAST 13 MONTHS.

THE OTHER PIECE OF THIS IS I THINK IT'S HARD WHEN WE'RE STUCK IN THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT TO ENVISION CONGRESS AS MEANINGFULLY CHANGING ANYTHING, BUT IF AMERICAN HISTORY TEACHES US ANYTHING IT'S THAT THESE POLITICAL TIDES CAN SHIFT QUICKLY.

WE HAVE MIDTERM ELECTIONS WE HAVE A NEW CONGRESS THAT WILL BE SWORN IN NEXT JANUARY.

IF THIS KEEPS UP, IF WE DON'T SEE A REAL ABOUT-FACE FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IT'S NOT HARD TO IMAGINE, HARI, THIS KIND OF REFORM BECOMES NOT JUST A HUGE ISSUE IN THE MIDTERMS, BUT ACTUALLY A POINT ON WHICH THERE MIGHT BE A MODICUM OF CONSENSUS COME NEXT JANUARY.

THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO BREAK THIS CONVERSATION OUT INTO SHORT- TERM SOLUTIONS AND LONG-TERM SOLUTIONS BECAUSE I THINK WE SHOULD NOT GIVE UP THE GHOST THAT A FUTURE CONGRESS AS SOON AS NEXT YEAR MIGHT BE MORE WILLING TO RESTORE A MODICUM OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT IT'S VERY HARD TO IMAGINE THE CURRENT CONGRESS DOING.

>> STEPHEN VLADECK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>>> FINALLY, A MOMENTOUS SIGNAL OF CHANGE, SARAH MALALY HAS BECOME THE FIRST FEMALE LEADER OF ENGLAND, THE 106th ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY.

PRIOR TO BECOMING A PRIEST IN 2006 AND LATER SERVING AS BISHOP OF LONDON, SHE WAS A NURSE FOR THE UK PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE, THE NHS.

NOW SHE IS VOWING TO CALL OUT MISOGYNY IN HER NEW ROLE AND ADVOCATE FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY WITHIN THE CHURCH AS SHE BECOMES THE SPIRITUAL LEADER FOR 85 MILLION CHRISTIANS ACROSS THE GLOBAL ANGLICAN COMMUNE.

THAT IS A MILESTONE INDEED.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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