Funding for To The Contrary provided by: This week on To The Contrary: First, a widening gender ga in remote work and how diversity and equity are adapting under political pressure.

Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé.

Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

Up first, the face of remote work.

As more women opt to work from home, a growing gender gap is reshaping the American workplace.

While return to office mandates and incentives favor in-person workers, many women, especially mothers are sticking with remote roles.

This is due in large par to caregiving responsibilities and childcare costs.

Despite the flexibility, remote workers face reduced feedback, fewer promotions and limited mentorship.

Big employers are rewarding office attendance, which some experts warn could deepe the so-called motherhood penalty and stall women's advancement in leadership.

Joining me are Debra Carnahan, former judge and federal prosecutor; KJ McKenzie, co-owner of Metro Conservative Media; Jessica Washington, politics reporter for The Intercept; and Taylor Hathorn a visiting fellow for the IWF.

Is this gap good or bad for women?

I think it remains to be seen but there's some great concerns about incentives for coming back into the workplace that would not apply to women who choose to work from home.

I think it's a good thing because it gives women the freedom to choose what truly matters, like balancing family, faith, and career.

And that's not a step backward.

It's actually real freedom.

I definitely have real concerns about the idea of women falling backwards, potentially because they're not having that face time in the office.

But to me, this speaks a lot more to the lack of childcare flexibility and the lack of workplaces really making adaptions for families and for women and for fathers as well.

Women and men bring different skill sets to the table.

So any policy that allows women to self introduce themselves back into the workforce is a great idea for society and the economy.

It just seems to me we've had this debate about any number of issue over the last 34 years of this show, but why is it that women are still taking more tim to work from home than men are?

When this all started back in the 70s, 80s, everybody thought there would be a difference at first.

But after a while, women and men would even out in terms of showing up at the office.

Yeah, Bonnie, I just want to say having been a professional, and still am, woman, but having raised my children, the burden still falls more on women and childcare and all the costs that go associated with going into the office and having children— Why do you think that is?

Why is it— It hasnt grown as much as it should have grown.

And I hear from young mothers all the time, I can't afford childcare.

And you have t look at who's making more money.

And then we still have men making more money than women do on the dollar.

So it brings up a more systemic problem about raising children and supporting our families in this country.

And we're failing.

We've been failing, and we need to do better.

Should we be doing more to get men to share half the housework, or is that possible?

Is it something that they'l never share on an equal basis?

I think that there's a lot of debate going around social media right now, especially in my generation about—there's this concept of, you know, well, my husband does a lot because I didn't marry a loser.

And I think that women need to do a better job about picking who they marry and making sure that they have a partner who contributes equally, both inside and outside of the home, and sees the value that women bring who choose to contribute solely inside the home.

Any ideas on how to make sure you're doing that?

Just good communication in your marriage and making sure that you're just selecting a good partner who shares your same values before you jump in and get married.

I think that the concept of waiting a moment and making sur that you figure out who you are married to and who you're going to be married to, is something that has existed throughout several generations, and it should continue today.

Well, is it a mistake for employers to assume that this is now been a 30 or so year evolution in the workplace?

Is it a mistake for them to think women will just automatically show up?

No, I don't— I don't believe so at all.

I think we're actually approaching this conversation in the wrong way from the jump.

So the gender gap, is it really a problem?

You know, this so-called gender gap assumes wome want the same path as every man.

But not all women want or need to be in these executive offices.

The reason more men are more successful in this, it's not due to discrimination.

It's because they tend to choose jobs that are more dangerous.

They're demanding and require technical skill or isolation.

And women don't choose these jobs, nor do they choose these career paths or majors in college.

Can you think of anything that employers could do to change women's minds about that?

If we're talking specifically about remote work versus, you know, at home work, there is a difference.

There's going to always be a difference in that, you know, people that go into the office should be paid or should get some benefits of coming into the office.

And it's not just literally, but also just organically.

You're going to get more face time with employers, with bosses.

People are going to see yo more.

So that's going to then, in turn, create more growth opportunities.

I also think that it's important to address the fact that childcare is a huge issue.

And in this scenario, I think that governmen regulation and over regulation on childcare and in daycare centers, not talking about the protection of children, but just the access and availability to daycar centers is incredibly important for women when making this choice.

I don't necessarily believe that that's strictly on the employer, but more on the government in releasing some of these regulations and tampering down a little bit so that there is more access so that we can have more affordability, since there's more supply.

A lot of the regulations that exist are for safety.

Should we let go of those regulations?

Will that get more women—?

I dont think a lot of the regulations exist for safety.

I think a lot of the regulations exis because of government overreach.

There's—we're not saying remove, you know, all or put all spiky object inside of a child's classroom.

We're saying that if there needs to be someone in the neighborhood who offers a home daycare, that person should not go to prison for offering a home daycare, should they have the proper CPR certifications and other opportunities that other daycares have that just might not have gone through the same certification process.

It's just too convoluted for the American public.

I find that really—I mean that's pretty interesting to me.

You know, thinking about childcare.

I certainly am an advocate of family friend childcare, which is the option to have family members.

I think that is certainly something in my research covering, you know, our childcare gaps, being able to pay family and friends to actually watch children would be a massive boon, rapidly expanding our childcare infrastructure.

I mean, what we are talking about here is wome feeling as if they have to work from home because they don' have flexible childcare options.

They don't have childcare options that meet our modern world, where we have two parents in the workforce, in large part because two parents need to work, because childcare is unaffordable without that.

So we are really talking about massive gaps in our childcare infrastructure and to me, that seems almost bigger than this conversation about work from home or not work from home.

Why do you think women are following this story and following the, you know, the— the development you just pointed to and not men?

Women and men have different skillsets.

We bring different things to society.

And I think that that's something that we've steered away from as society.

We try so hard to be like men, to succeed like men and women bring so much more, so much different value and more value in different areas.

And I think that those differences should be highlighted and celebrated.

We are empathetic, loving, caring people.

Men are too, but we just bring different skill sets to the table.

And I think that it is really important that we have a voice in this space.

Why don't employers star rewarding women for saving rent?

In other words, the employer doesn't have to pay for a space in an office for that person.

What about bonusing that money to somebody who decides to stay home?

Would that work?

Absolutely.

And, Bonnie, I would just like to say we're not living in a vacuum.

We're in a global world, a global economy.

And the Nordic countries in Europe consistently get rated as the best places for women to live.

And women thrive there, an they become heads of companies.

And there's a lot more support from the government in promoting that.

And we're promoting families.

I don't think it's government overreach.

I don't think government is the problem.

So maybe we need to step outside ourselves and see how other countrie have done this better than what we're doing.

Well, what is what is it tha the Nordic countries are doing?

They have better daycare.

They have government support and subsidies for childcare.

They actually subsidize women staying home longer than we do in this country.

Some countries have a couple of years where you can have a child, establish the routine, the family, and then go back to work.

It's a slightly different subject, I know, talking about it from the beginning, but they definitely are more supported than we support women and men in this country when it comes to childcare.

There's no other place on the planet that provides a way, a pathwa to success other than America.

I just dont agree with you on that.

I hear that all the time, and I think its— We produce the most success as far as income, for men and women, no other place on the planet does that.

But I wanted to get back to what Jessica said.

I think there is a deeper issue, and it does go back to the family.

In two parent, two parent intact families, child rearing is is basically balanced, but with rising fatherlessness, which we continue to ignore, particularly on the left, we will not— We ignore that issue.

And of course broken homes.

There's more pressure that falls on women, particularly women of color, because single parent, households are— the majority of them are in minority communities.

And the left ignores this and demand this so-called workplace equity, when the real thing is we need to restore the family and reduce the burden.

When you say restore the family, what are you referring to?

I mean, we need to, first of all, get away from these governmental policie that reward single motherhood.

That we need to push more towards less— We need to stop pushing sexuality and promiscuity on our teenagers, pushing this idea of abortion on demand, thing like this and move the culture, move policy towards encouraging marriage, encouraging monogamy, things like that.

Then you don't think that women— I've met so many women who've said, you know, I was going to be a real feminist about this.

I was going to have my kid or kids and keep working.

But then when the child is here, you feel differently.

You feel an attachment that you had no idea you were going to feel.

Yes, I agree, and that's again goes to career choices.

Not just career, but choices in life.

You know, there is a choice there.

There are—there's going to be some type of give and go.

We're going to, you know, lose things on some ends.

We won't make as much money because there are certain careers, certain jobs we're going to take that we will— We need—we want to be home with our children.

That's just a natural feminine quality.

But, again, it's not a situation of discrimination or unequal pay in these situations.

Its just that women have a, you know, we're going to be more of the caregivers.

We're going to be more of the ones that want to stay at home.

And that's actually proven.

Most women, they do want to spen more time with their children, you know, when you compare them to men.

Certainly, you know, there are study after study that women feel significantly more pressure even in two parent homes.

Even when there is a father present, they feel significantly more pressure to do household duties, to take on more of the child rearing.

And we've seen that repeatedly in research.

We also know that women tend to be considered the primary parent, even in scenarios where they might be doing less parenting time.

So, for example, the school is going to call when a child is sick.

They're much more likely to call the mother.

Now, the father might have a more flexible schedule than the mother, but she's the one who's going to have more of this burden.

So of course we're seein that play out in the workplace.

We're seeing that inflexible— the need for flexibilit within the workplace, that women have this additional pressure and burden.

You know, I was raised by a woman who was a very powerful, successful attorney, but the school isn't going to call my dad.

They're going to call my mom.

And that's not because my father wasn't an excellent dad.

It's becaus of these societal expectations.

And so to me, it's— it really does need to be a cultural reset, even as we're having these conversations about equality, about gender equality, clearly they're not fully seeping in.

And why can't it be as simple as telling schools that, you know, the husband, the the male partner in this situation has more free time than the woman.

So if you need help during the day with something that goes on at school that is, where you need the parent to come pick up the child, call him first.

My parents are educators.

They were high school administrators and middle school administrators my entire life.

They were teachers.

And that really ends up being a conversation about personal accountability and responsibility inside the home that is decided by the family unit.

I agree with Jessica completel that this is a cultural issue, but it is an issue because we are not having those conversations inside of our home.

There is no government regulation, there's no corporate decision that is going to make this any better.

These conversations have to happen inside of the home, and the mom and the dad have to go to the school together and say, hey, here's our schedule for the week.

And if something happens, I'm the parent you call on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and he's the parent you call on Tuesday, Thursday.

That is not a regulatory issue.

That is just a conversatio that happens inside of the home.

Let us know what you think.

Follow me on X @BonnieErbe.

From gender gaps to diversity and inclusion.

Under the Trump administration's executive order limiting diversity, equity and inclusion programs, many companies are shifting focus from race and gender to so-called safer inclusion topics.

DEI consultants report increasing demand for training on neurodivergence, mental health, generational differences and parental leave.

That, instead of focusing on unconscious bias or racial equity.

A recent survey showed almost 8 in 10 executives plan to rebrand DEI efforts under terms such as employee engagement or workplace culture, to avoid scrutiny.

Critics argue this shift dilutes the core purpose of DEI while others say it may broaden appeal and protect programs under pressure.

So, Taylor, what's the answer here?

Diversit quotas are really well intended, but they do undermine the achievements of women, of people of color who have earned a seat at the table.

And I think that that's what this conversation is really circling back to, is that we want a society and a workforc that continues to be successful, that rewards work based performance and results and not meeting quotas.

I personally don't want to be a quota, and I don't think that many people in the workforce want to feel that way either, and whether that is the intention or not, that is the perception.

And it really drives away high performing workers, when you have a culture that is focused on culture of perception rather than a culture of work based performance being rewarded I have to wonder how many women are influenced, like in the Nordic countries.

I think almost all of them at least the top three countries in terms of population have had women leaders.

We haven't had one yet.

And we're way behin a lot of smaller, less advanced, less wealthy countrie that have had women as leaders Would that— and we talked about it a bit in the last section, but would having more women leaders in the news on TV show women that, yes, you can make it to the top and other women in other fields are making it to the top?

Absolutely.

That's very influential, and especially on our young girls who are coming up—role models, mentor.

You can't underestimate the importance of that.

And sorry, but we are lagging behind a lot of other countries where women are concerned and making it to the to and the support that they get.

And you can say all you want, we're the best, we're the greatest.

But, you know, the figures an the facts and the women leaders that are produced by other countries don't lie as to the ultimate reality of, they're supporting women more than we support them in our country.

Well, let's look at, you know, other countries that seem to be making the transition naturally, such as the Nordic countries.

Are women watching the news and seeing who's leading the country and taking that as a personal sign to themselves of what's going to happen to them when they go out in the workplace?

That's an interesting question, Bonnie.

And I just want to bring up one thing of my many decades in politics and polls and, consistently, the pollsters will tell you, when they call to ask a question about what do yo support, what you don't support.

Women in this country tend to follow their husbands a little more than their own independent thinking and are often, to use their words, kind of intimidated if there is a man in the room that is their partner or their husband, that they don't feel quite as free to discuss their views, if they differ fro their spouses or their partner.

And that's a cultural thing as well.

Now that's— It's also a choice.

It's back to a choice.

So I have never had a problem vocalizing my opinion, and I don't think many on the— many women on this panel have ever had that issue.

No, because were on this panel.

I was raised in a household that encouraged me to be able to speak my mind and to do my research.

And yes, that is a cultural issue, but it's also an issue of choice of who you marry, who you spend time around.

And no government policy is going to fix that.

And also, it didn't work.

These DEI policies, this DEI system didn't work.

You have people within the system blowing the whistle on this woke ideology that was pushed on people in corporate America in education all over the place.

Take for instance, Doctor Eric Smith.

He is an Associate Professor of Rhetoric at York College and he is a former DEI trainer.

He testified befor Congress and said, today's DEI actually did more harm than it does good.

And it doesn't build unity.

It fosters racial division.

I have deep concern about getting rid of diversity, equity, inclusion, and particularly in the way that it's been done the way where we're, you know, combing through grants for words like diversity, for words like women, things like that.

That to me I have deep concerns about it, not so much because I believe that every single DEI consultant, that all of these programs worked perfectly or that they actually achieved all of their ends.

But because I believe that we should be moving towards those ends, that diversity is a value that we should all hold, that equality is something that we should all be moving towards.

That education around these issues is important.

I personally, you know, throughout my, you know, young life, when I was in high school, middle school, I was taught about diversity, equity, inclusion.

I, you know, attended schools where it was very important for us to learn about our history, to learn.

I attended a Quaker school.

We learned that the light of the divine, however you think of that, is within each person.

I think those are values that we should be teaching people, not just a children, but as adults as well.

And so it concerns me, this idea that diversity is now a bad word.

You know, women, equality, you know, racism.

These are all things that we can't talk about when we know that these are things that exist in our society, that are perpetuated more when we pretend as if they're not happening.

I think these new policies, they're not— they're not taking away equality.

They're taking away this idea of equity.

So we're not out here trying to make it so that we have, you know, the outcomes have to reflect the, the, the pool of people, you know, these, these initiatives that is in place, it still includes kindness in the workplace, mental health and wellness, team building and empathy unconscious bias without blame.

In the future, should it b boiled down to 1 or 2 lectures and a couple of fake drama sessions where you try, you play roles and show people how things get better when you admit that, yes we have issues in this society.

We're not perfect.

Nobody is.

Why should you have to lecture people on being good people?

You shouldn't.

That is something that is learned in your household.

Because you have to.

Uh, no.

I think tha this is about equal opportunity and not equal outcomes.

It is about empowering individuals and not meeting quotas.

And I think that it is incredibly important for people to feel empowered and to feel like they matter as a person and in a merit based society, that happens.

That doesn't happen through quotas, and that does not mean ignoring injustices when they occur.

I just want to say, I don't want to go back to the 50s, and the 40s and the 30s.

I don't want to see that women are in the secretarial pool and that white men are dominating everything.

And we used to call it affirmative action, and it actually built up women being able to be where they are today, because other than that, you're just going to be a secretary or a typist or be behind the counter shoveling the food at the cafeteria.

It was like that, and we built on that.

So be careful before we destroy and wipe all this out in six months, on what took decades to build.

All right.

Thank you all for this fascinating discussion.

And that's it for this edition of To The Contrary.

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